Open Briefing: 14 January 2007
January 14th, 2007 by Marcus
Welcome to Open Briefing: 14 January 2007. All comments that don't pertain to anything posted recently belong here. Debate, inform, have fun, mind the rules.
Posted in Open Briefing
Okay…where's the new baby pictures? She's got to have changed a little. It's been two weeks. Come on…cough 'em up.
Hey PJ, Gunther asked in another post what a scrote was. LMAO! I'll let you define that one! hehehehehehe
I guess I'd tell him to look in the mirror or at a picture of the One Utah boys, Terri.
Since I know what Gunther asked about is, and really don't need to discuss it, I would like to ask if any one thinks the manner in which Barbara Boxer addressed Condi Rice in questioning about the war was appropriate for an elected official? Personally, I find the level of despicable behavior being displayed by Congress and the Senate to be deplorable. There is not an ounce of decency, nor respectability displayed any more. There are guilty parties on both sides, and always have been. But with the growing hatred being shown on the left, new lows are being reached on a daily basis.
Also, I would like to know if any one else is outraged by the newly elected Speaker of the House who happens to be second in the line of succession for the Presidency, trying to do a dirty under the table deal for her constituency on the minimum wage deal? We have not even gotten through the first hundred hours of the new Congress and the New Speaker is already dealing corruption??????? This is going to be very interesting. Shouldn't SHE step down? Shouldn't we have an investigation?? Shouldn't it be Tunagate???
Sorry, just the little things that run through my mind.
I'm with PJ on this We want baby pictures! We want baby pictures!
I have no problem with Sen Boxer's questions to Dr. Rice. I think they were designed to point out that nobody is being asked to sacrifice except the military. I think that is a very important point.
So PJ is insulting people in this open forum part of your "rules" here? I am assuming you meant to insult me.
Takes a scrote to know one. What is so wrong with being the SACK that holds the BALLS? Sounds pretty manly to me. I am happily a scrote, and a biggee at that.
Sue; Babs and Condi, dike on dike celebrity death match NOW!
Don't ask, don't tell, Sue. I agree pelosi is slime, the democrats love her though, and think she is the next Joan of Arc.
It is pretty funny, if you love bush be happy, because this is one democrat that can't get it up, so bush is safe from impeachment and getiing screwed. Let her just do her thing, and we will all have a good laugh.
Gunther, I have to assume that you either cannot read or you are Cliff. Your foul mouth is definitely that of a 1U person, and the fact that you owned PJ's derogatory might be rather telling. Yet another in the Kubaya Circle of "close" friends???
Did I swear? What did I say Sue? I was insulted, I think. What are you talking about? I owned a derogatory? I cannot make heads or tails of that.
1U person?, the guy that you all called a scrote? Then you all laugh, and call me one. I don't get it. Is this an open site to discuss the issues, or just a chat room?
Last time I checked sack and balls weren't foul, simply common phrasing describing the male anatomy. Please recall, I didn't start this nonsense, yet I will be a man about it and apoligize if I have offended you fine lady.
Gunther—Just getting back here. I'm the one who should apologize, and I do to you for my flippant remarks. I have no idea if you are connected with One Utah, but if you are I suggest you avoid contact with those people, because they are deeply troubled and twisted. Once again, I apologize for lumping you into a group that you may have no connection with and wish you well.
I don't believe that PJ was referring to you when he made the comment about someone being a scrote, but instead someone from the One Utah blog…. unless Gunther, that's who you are……
Everyone on this thread, I don't want this opportunity given to us by CplM to devolve into mudslinging. Otherwise we become the sicko's on One Utah. I'm very sorry if I started something.
Accepted. Reform, Re- rank, and move out.
Wow. I just got a ton of comment emails. Yes, it is time to leave the scrote jokes at home. I ignore the first few because I was busy here at home. I shouldn't have let it slide for so long. PJ, thanks for being a man and owning your mistake. As Gunther said, get back in formation and continue the discussion. I think the last comment of worth was Boxer vs. Rice.
I would love to lay into Sen Boxer for that one. That was the lowest of blows to Sec Rice. However, Boxer has a valid point that there aren't a lot of folks asked to sacrifice, but what is there to sacrifice? The economy is booming, there isn't a shortage on any kind of food stuffs, and the troops aren't going without. I would like to know what Sen Boxer wants Americans to sacrifice.
Cpl M, I also apologize to you and CJ. I value your blog too much to step out of line again.
Now, as to Boxer. Yes, she may have made a very valid point about sacrifice, but we all know that's not what she was after. Her primary objective is what it has always been…humiliate any Republican and anyone connected with President Bush. No one can say what was really in her heart, but we can certainly see what's in her record. I still want more baby pictures.
CPL M,
You ask what there is to sacrifice? The country is going into enourmous debt. This debt is being bought mainly by China. Probably our biggest threat in the world. This is not good. While if you only look at the stock market the economy is doing ok, I would not consider it booming. If you look at other factors maybe not so much. but at any rate I think it is just good policy to have everybody have some skin in the game.
The DJIA is well over 12,000. It wasn't too long ago that we were having record highs almost everyday. I would say that is a boom.
I'm interested in why you think China is the biggest threat to the US. Mind sharing?
Hawk, I agree that everyone ought to have some skin in the game. Perhaps a good sacrifice for those who don't have to go and don't have any relatives that do would be to drop their political agendas and support the effort being made by our troops. Not the old line "I support the troops but not the war", that's a cop out. Just support your country's policy as long as it lasts and truly support the troops in the many way you can through Soldier's Angels, etc. and let them know you care no matter what your personal feelings may be. I can think of at least half a dozen people I'd rather occupied the White House but I support what we're involved in now, BECAUSE I support our troops.
The Dow hit its insane peaks right before '29. I don't want to doomsay, but Hawk has a point.
I have been reading about the fact that China is thinking about dumping 1.2 trillion is US cash assets it is holding because our government is printing money like counterfeiters, and this is not only devaluing their money but ours too. In the last 7 weeks our currency has dropped 10% against other majotr currencies, our goods become cheaper to buy, but since we hardly make anything, so what? The negative is that it is going to make what we buy from foreigners 10% more costly overnight.
China can't dump the cash fast or it will cause a musical chairs race where everyone dumps dollars. Those dollars will invaribly come home, making whatever money we hold worth less.
China is commie, and if you read Mao, he alway stated that he would sell us the rope to hang ourselves. They may be free market, but it may be simply be a means to end to usurp us as global dominator. Assymetric economic warfare, China doesn't really care about capitalism except to vanquish it. They use entreprenuers as the weapon, our greed the fuel. It is extremely dangerous, and as Hawk states, I am much more concerned about China than any terrorists.
We even buy the organs of dissidents that are put to death. China is sick. They allow the condemned to stay home
oops, and when they come for them, they do it with a van, they kill the people in the van, harvest the organs in the van, and then rush them to the airport so they can arrive to the people that arranged to buy them asap. Sick. i fear them far more than terrorists. There is passion in terror, the chicoms are like the Borg.
I don't believe in "My country right or wrong". My country better be right or they are going to hear from me. Dissent is not unpatriotic. Blind loyalty leads to facism. I do not give up my constitutional rights easily. Maybe you think it is ok to be able to lock somebody away with no right to a trial, but I think that Habeous Corpus has been illegally suspended and I am going to make it known.
Interesting, Gunther. I am by no means an economist. You wouldn't have some links to back that stuff up, would you? I'm not saying it isn't true, but I would like to see the sources for this stuff.
You're right, Hawk. Dissent is not unpatriotic.
And who said anything about Habeious Corpus being suspended? Unless you're talking about the crew in Gitmo. There weren't any American citizens down in Gitmo last I checked. I am a firm believer in that foreigners are not guaranteed any rights afforded by the Constitution. They are not American citizens and they have not earned those rights.
Hawk, I never mentioned anything about patriotism or locking anybody up. I merely suggested an alternative sacrifice that those without a direct "skin in the game" might make. Don't shoot the messenger or put words in my mouth. I, like you, believe in peaceful dissent. Voting would help. But, I think when you take an easy path like saying I support the troops but not the war, you're just avoiding taking a stand. I think it's very clear. If you support the troops you must support what they are doing. Otherwise YOU DON"T SUPPORT THE TROOPS.
The Military Commissions Act suspended Habeaus Corpus. Human Rights belong to people not US citizens. The framers of the Constitution understood the difference between persons and citizens, and when they wanted only citizens to have rights they said it. Otherwise the rights apply to all people. Basic Constitutional Law.
Hawk–Two things…you're absolutely right about Habeaus Corpus. That one makes me very nervous too.
Second–The framers of the Constitution never envisioned we'd have to deal with foreign terrorism or illegal aliens. Therfore, you cannot hang the Human Rights angle on the Constitution.
The dow at 12000 does not mean as much when the money is worth 10% less in seven weeks, then adjusted for this, the dow would at stand at 10800, which isn't a high, and has actually gone nowhere. Given we have no more manufacturing and are a service economy, we would have real trouble if the dollar falls any further. The chinese mean to make this happen, and with dollars they hold they can make it happen.
Ever considered at the geo political level the Iraq war is about DENYING access of that oil to china to impede its growth?, which to anyone that is astute is terrifying. They need oil to grow, perhaps Iraq is a clusterF*** on purpose for the suimple reason that we cannot allow them to have access to this resource, logistically so easy to get for china. They know it too, and are biding their time until things get dicey for them. We can grow quite well oil at 70 dollars a barrel, china can in no way do this. the control of the oil market is strangling them. If Irans oil bourse gets going then oil will have tobe bought in Euros, and that is something we can in no way afford as we would have to transact dollars to euros and take a HUGE hit.
Remember, it was the cutting off of oil and steel exports by US that led Japan to believe that war with America was necessary because otherwise they could not grow as an empire, because we had through embargo disallowed it. The comparison to me as a student of history is eerie and unsettling. Just putting this out there, like you guys need more to think about. Good night
Yes, human rights do apply to all people, but I do not believe anyone accused of being an unlawful combatant has the right of habeas corpus, which is the basic gist of the Military Commissions Act.
Gunther—You know for someone who thinks George Bush is a boob, you give him an awful lot of credit for deviousness I don't think he's capable of.
In my opinion, you are right about the economics of this country. We're afloat on a dream called the stock market and the boat has been sinking for some time.
Cpl M, I'm no legal scholar, but I think Hawk was talking about the Patriot Act, not the Military Commisions Act, which more than applies to combatants. It's the rights we've lost under the Patriot Act, which I mostly support, that worries me. Once removed they're awful hard to get back.
When the sole power to declare somebody an unlawful combatant rests in one person, habeaus corpus has been suspended. Habeas Corpus does not mean you have to set somebody free, it means you have to go before the court and provide evidence of why they are being held. It is known as the Great Writ because it was established in 1305 in England to keep Edward I from just throwing opponents in jail, never to be heard from again. It is fundamental to protecting liberty. It can only be suspended for Rebellion, Invasion or Public Safety. Public Safety does not mean to stop a terrorist attack, it means to prevent all hell from breaking loose. It is meant to be a temporary measure so that order can be restored.
PJ
You did say, "Support the country's policy as long as it lasts."
Human Rights belong to people. You do not lose them by being an illegal alien, a terrorist, or a criminal. Human Rights are the whole purpose of the Laws of War. It does not mean that you cannot incarcerate or go to war. It means their are rules. And the Founding Fathers certainly knew about terrorism, Hell, they led an insurection.
Hawk–I respect your opinion, but I cannot for the life of me see what human rights have to do with the Constitution of the United States. For one thing, our country has one of the cleanest human rights records in the world. There are exceptions that trump us like neutral countries that never get involved in anything. Our Consitutuion is a living document meant to be changed when conditions in our country change. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not we have groups of people who wish us harm. Who would tear down all we have here and replace it with a fascist regime, or a theocracy. The Constitution and how we perceive it changes with those times and we owe it to out future generations to safeguard those values.
PJ, with the view of a living Constitution are you sure you are a Conservative?
The Bill of Rights only exists to protect Human Rights. The Writ of Habeas Corpus only exists to protect the Right of Liberty. These cannot be thrown away that easily because somebody wishes to do us harm. We are not weak. They are not close to tearing this country down. I do not believe the principles outlined in the Constitution change over time. There application may. When the 2nd Amendment says we have a right to bear arms (even if you believe the first clause of the amendment is meaningless), I don't think it means we can have personal nukes. But I believe the first amendment allows me to speak against the government without fear of any redress from that government.
No, Hawk, I wouldn't describe myself as a Conservative. Despite my stand on Iraq and our troops involvement, I vote Libertarian. I'm beyond conservatism. I want the central government gone. Restore state's rights. Surprised, huh? :0
I too believe we have an right, nay an obligation to speak against a governement we don't agree with. I would never curtail that right. That's why the Habeaus Corpus issue bothers me so much. But, I also believe we have an obligation to our men in women in the armed forces, and that includes supporting them and the things they are doing. They are doing a lot more right than wrong, and despite how this Iraq policy shakes out I cannot bring myself to cop out by saying I support the troops but not the war. To me they are inextricably bound together.
Exactly what do we need that we can't produce, Gunther? Not for the same cut rate as China, perhaps (with their slave labor), but we can still produce most everything I can think of. Some mills might need a re-tool, but it's doable.
Economists are as bad as weather men! They tell you a storm is coming, and you get a spit of rain. They tell you it's going to be 20 degrees, and it never gets up above 15. Then after the fact they come up with funny excuses for why they were wrong.
I read the funniest story a while ago that blamed our inflated oil prices in 2006 largely on a huge influx of money into oil hedge funds. Now oil hedge funds are persona non grata, and our gas prices (for cars anyway) has gone down. (Natural gas prices aren't effected by oil since it isn't made from oil.)
It's also funny how I can't find the article now, though. The internet is a strange place that way. Articles can disappear if you don't capture them. I think it was a visiting professor sort of article anyway. There are other articles saying the same thing, just not as funny.
Miriam—I agree, funny story. There's always some excuse or another for rising prices of anything, but oil is the funniest. I wish they would just come out and say it's for higher profits. We all know it. Why not admit it.
I also agree with your premise on manufactured goods. We know why that's not happening here too. It's our standard of living here. Too high to compete with slave labor (or virtual slave labor) in foreign countries. Not enough profits. As the beef ads say "It's what's for dinner".
I guess I lost Hawk when I admitted to being a Libertarian.
Oh well, I guess I outlasted everybody. Got to, I'm at work. Goodnight everyone, and Cpl M thanks for the opportunity to talk with such an intelligent bunch of people.
Well, the moral of the story was that it wasn't directly caused by "Big Oil" whom everyone wanted to blame. It was caused by individual investorys wanting to "get in on the action". In fact, the funniest part (at least if you aren't one of those investors) is that the investors that caused the spike didn't make much if anything on the deal.
I call it the Lemming Market, but I haven't found any economy enthusiasts that agree with me (at lest on what I like to call it). They all tell me that lemmings don't actually run off of clifts (which relates to market crazyness how?).
Gunther, the dollar being less valuable doesn't mean anything when the nations GDP has increased 3 percent in each of the last five consecutive terms. I mean, nobody can say the economy is doing bad or the dollar is doing bad. I do want them at their strongest, but I would never use them as a sign for impending doom or to make politics. Like the notion that we had a surplus in 1998. The fact is we haven't had a surplus in more than 20 years, but when it comes to currency value I understand why some people worry, since several outcomes can stem from a valuable or invaluable dollar(or dinar, euro, pound, etc.). Like the Euro for instance, it is a valuable peice of currency, but it isn't exactly doing well. Since people have to work longer hours for the same pay. I saw a Time article on it, but I have to find it. Anyway, that is understandable because if a peice of currency has higher value then it would be harder to earn it. This isn't exactly a good situation because even if you have a strong currency, it would be fruitless since it's not so excessable.
PJ; the framers knew everything about "terrorism". For the entirety of the war, the crown viewed them as such, and called them insurgents. A little known fact is that early in the War for Independence, Continental soldiers upon defeat, were rounded up by the british, and summarily executed.
PJ; I can't figure Bush out, there he is I tell my liberal friends, his family is getting richer, as are his friends, and you seemingly can't remove him. He has high survivability. Once I tell them this I say to them, who now are the idiots?
I have often refered to him as the "idiot genius", or the genius posing as an idiot. The idiot ploy has worked with me when dealing with authority and you wish to blunt it, works well with some cops too. No reason it couldn't work on the American people, esecially libs that aerealways thinking they are smarter than everyone else.
Gunther, there is a fundamental difference between the "terrorism" of the American Revolution and terror as we see it today. Give me a little time and I'll make a top level post about it.
Seal when is the last time you traveled. A cup of coffee in Germany with our worth less buck is now 4 dollars. It does have an impact and we are seeing it everyday in theprices of what we buy.Oil going down? It is still 53 bucks, when it gets to 40, I might agree with you.
Nobodies money is dong well, it is a fact of history that ALL paper currency meets its end, sooner or later. People fight wars so it won't. That is likely what this one is about too. No way we can ever let any arab, persian nation denominate oil in any currency other than ours, or it's game over.
China, Russiaand India are buying glod and hrad assets to prepare for the demise of paper money. No doubt. Our bankers are trying to stop it, and compelling wars to preserve itself.
Miriam our factories are disassebled and now in foreign countries, I am not saying we can't rebuild it all. but in a major modern war, the conflict may not last more than 2 months. If you have no manufacturing, and we really do not anymore, you will be down and out nad unable to ramp up in time if the chips are down. Very bad security strategy in my opinion.
The price of oil may well have to do with the devaluation of our dollar. It's very simple, if I wrote you several bad checks(devalued money) for services you rendered, and I am one of my only customers, or the biggest, and I bounced a few of them, you may well start charging me more for showing up and doing your bidding, to cover the predictable various check bounces. That is what the arabs are doing, raise the price as they realize as any person would, that our money is becoming increasingly worth less.
There was no difference to the crown, they rendered and hanged Patritots as well. We were absolutely terrorists to the King, no different than a PIRATE(the name for a 17th century terrorist) as far as the crown was concerned and subject to summary execution.
Remember Nathan Hale? He reminds me of a Baathist.
Sorry bout the typos, I generally post on sites where I can self edit afterwards, I wil try to be more careful. That is gold and hard assets…
one of YOUR only customers…..AH Mondays….
Where the heck is our hat competition that I am winning? I am waiting by the phone for the call to announce that I have won.
Gunther, you have a very circular type of reasoning. It is a given that whatever you need to fight a modern war, you will need to have on hand before it starts. I was discussing our ability to make the products we use. That is what makes everyone nervous about our dependence on trade.
Incidently, we still make cars and fabric and gas and a myrid of other necessities. It ridiculous to imply that we dismantled our factories and moved them over seas. We have built factories over seas, but we still have factories here even if they aren't fully used.
As far as oil goes, all indications are that it's going the way of the dinasour…well, ok, not quite that extinct, but close. In fact, I would say there is more loose money and power in the world trying to keep that from happening than any other type of lobby. Of course it's not going to happen tomorrow and not in a straight line.
As far as the dollar goes, if a slightly lower dollar makes it harder for Americans to afford expensive German coffie, I'd say great! That means that products from China will hopefully cost more too, and more people will buy American. Wasn't it you that was so worried that we don't have enough manufacturing here? Personally, I'd suggest chilling out for a bit to gain some better perspective.
Yeah what Chad said!
Don't really want to get into this but I can't resist. Gunther you obviously haven't been to a Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts recently to purchase a cup of coffee with your worthless in Germany dollar!!! Ok, carry on.
I am talking about coffee in a German greasy spoon Sue. I never said our dollar was worthless, I said it is worth less. Different. It costs about 20 bucks to eat a greasy spoon breakfast in Germany. Per person.
Miriam, that this country does not have the base it once had is inarguable, Chilling out is great as long as you are not downsized and lose your job, insurance, and the rest. Sure we still have factories, with low wages and often illegals working in them, another security issue.
If you are comfortable, I am glad for you in that case. Many people have suffered alterations in this country, they have not yet recovered from due to restructuring of our economy, based on the concerns of profit alone.
It was minus 11 here this morning, I am totally chilled.
We certainly do not have what we need to produce what you mentioned for the demand we have. Re-starting factries takes longer than 2 months, even if they are properly shuttered. We have even become a food importing nation, happened last year. We now longer provide enough food to supply our nation, for a host of reasons, but it is a fact.
If you are attacked and unprepared then how will you "get prepared" after the fact? Isn't this what this the whole concern you here are all on about? Right now we are having some difficulty keeping the lid on a nation of 27 million that is BUSTED, broke. I know we are in no way prepared for a real enemy.
There is currently now no realistic replacement for the calories to provide energy that oil does. I have alternative energy in use in many applications, solar wind etc. but none of this is going to drag an 80,000 lbs semi over the 11,400 ft. pass over towards Denver. Right now, only a tank of diesel is going to do that. If there is any interruption in supply, we certainly will not have the time to "figure something out" before we suffer privation.
Gunther, you can give yourself a nervous brake down worrying about all the things that might happen but probably won't or you can step back, take a deep breath, forget all the maybes and work on our current problems…which is what our soldiers are doing.
Illegal aliens a problem? Throw them out and build the dang fence. Government spending too much? Put them on a pork free diet to start and for heaven's sake dispand FEMA! It is time Americans became independent (and community dependent) again. Repeal income tax and institute the fair tax. That would likely help with any trade imbalances.
These are all constructive things we can work together towards instead of taking pot shots at politicians or arguing why we went to war with Iraq (a moot point by now). Don't like your politicians? Ever considered becoming one for the sake of your country not your pocket book? Anyone know what a PCO is in poltical parties?
If you ask me, most Americans could use a little privation (and a big dose of determination). I've lived where there is real privation, so I know what can be lived without.
kidding Gunther!! sarcasm.
It doesn't bother me Miriam, I have the capacity, and an unenviable curse of having a memory that does not forget much of anything I have read or seen. I am keeping my aging parents from getting doddery by reminding them of just about everything we have ever done together in our lives. Those than can should, those that can't should be helped.
I am committed to weighing all the possibilities, Someone has to do it, we hope someone running the Country does. What I have mentioned are our current problems, and they are happening. Growing our own food and being energy independent are serious goals I have for the nation, the floating nature of our monetary system gives investing and saving a casino like atmosphere, and is likely why America has the lowest saving rate, and investment in long term future, of any developed country. This is unhealthy, I believe.
Your rather simplistic solutions to complex problems are OK, but for the most part they are not happening or hardly in the works.
I am naturalized 4 years now, one more year I can run for Congress, 3 more years I can run for Senator. I can never be President, because I wasn't born on US soil.
Privation…, me too Miriam, humans have tremendous capacity when their mind takes over. The storms in CO. paralysed the Front Range, and the consequence out here(western slope) is that people complained that the grocery stores ran out of frozen pizzas and hot pockets.
One thing I cannot do very well, is friggin type.
Gunther, might help if you slowed down when typing. heh Keep going, I am enjoying the discussion. I'm starting the American Revolution Terrorists post now.
My mind works faster than my fingers. In your analysis, you must include the terrorist(insurgent) Nathan Hale, who was dispirited that he had only one life to give to his country. Sound like any insurgents we have seen lately? He ended up just like Saddam, at the end of rope.
Our founding Fathers, shot tories and redcoats in the back when necessary, from fortified positions, tarred and feathered tories(certainly torture, because you almost always died, unless somebody loved you) and then burned houses of tories that wouldn't keep their mouths shut, or were colluding with the crown. They were no angels, and were commiting to winning by the meas necessary. Think of our own civil war, and compare it to what the Sunni and Shia are doing to one another. Nobody from a foreign land was so stupid as to intervene in that affair.
Different times also, so the comparison may not work at all points. This century we have seen our country drop nuclear bombs on people, Germans run concentration camps, Pol Pot murder anyone with a brain, and so on and so on. Our Founding Fathers had different levels of what they considered atrocity and unacceptable horror, I am sure.
We kill civilians without pause now, humanity I mean. Everyone has done it, so in the end our own acceptence of this brutality, has helped createthe types we see in the Middle East. I don't excuse them the slightest. It is wrong, we should stop it, and reel ourselves in too, when we run astray.
The best example of civilian killing that I can recall is the rampages of Ghengis Khan. Just proves the Asians have got it in them too. We need to improve ourselves, God help us.
Civilian killing in the old world is what I meant to say. Khan was one SERIOUS terrorist. In fact Islam was utterly destroyed by the Asian nomads on horseback, and fell into the barbarism we see today. It is probably very likely that the experience is where they learned what they do today.
Arabs have very long memories, and the stories of their history, are often told daily in their coffeshops, and when they gather. If you have read anything about the discoveries of the human brain lately, it has been determined that the brain does not know the difference between a memory, and what is happening right in front of it. It has to be taught the difference. I have seen it in my babies.
So for many Arabs the Cruades are alive, and they see it happening again. Understand this, and maybe we can figure out a psychological method for dealing with this particular branch of humanity besides just killing it like a mad dog.
I only mentioned things we can work on now to come to solutions. They aren't final solutions. The issue of energy is almost solved if the politicians would get out of the way. (It's not to the level of production where the energy could come on line in a year or two, of course, but the answer is there.)
And yes, the fence is going up. So what if the government isn't the one who's building it. If we are a soverign people, we need to act like it.
I'm supposed to be a natural born citizen of the US, but I don't know what they would say to my being able to become president. (Natural born citizens not born on US soil can fall into rather a lala land in the middle.) But then, I wouldn't vote for me for president, so why worry. I'm sure we can come up with someone better.
Personally, I've decided to start with PCO. I was too late to register to be voted in. (Plenty of PCO's in my area are voted in with only one vote, likely their own!) I might get myself appointed, though. We'll have to see. By the way, PCO's aren't paid. They're grass roots sorts of people.
Oh and one last thing, our Revolution was a MINORITY event. The insurgency(as the crown called it) was not supported openly by a majority of people. Keep that in mind as you watch the will and skill the Sunni minority in Iraq as it operates. They have that will, it is how they have survived as a minority in that region of the ME surrounded by the Shia, who would kill them all, at the drop of hat.
Rule your town, then your county, then your state….
If you were in Colorado you could see what is being done in the name of energy. We get drilled, California gets filled. We get to have to coal plants too, to provide energy for CO.
The issues are enormous. Germany has 62 nuclear plants that provide 80% of its electricity, 85 million people, highly modern. They re-process and re-enrich their waste, and re-use it. The plants are triple redundant in method for safety sake. What they cannot re-process they store in salt mines within the borders of their own nation. We cannot figure out what to do with ours. Germany is the size of Montana.
The plants they operate were engineered on paper using modeling and physics and incredible levels of skill and understanding.
The plans for these plants were drawn up by Americans, 35 years ago.
Dream on America, but wake up soon.
I understand you are enamored of Germany. I am definately not. I wouldn't want their problems no matter how modern they are. Americans have been spooked by fission energy and since we have plenty of other resources, they're still not biting. Truthfully, I think the question of to fission or not to fission is going to become moot soon.
My mother's family lives in the coal reagon of CO, so I know about coal. I don't believe any person holds all the answers, even you, Gunther. Our understanding of the future is greater only than our ability to control it (which isn't much). Like I said, doing something about a problem is better than constantly bemoaning it.
Do Americans need to wake up? I'd say they need more to get out of their shells and get involved. Become informed and have informed discussions of solutions. Do the best they can to prepare for the future and then leave it to the one who controlls the future.
Ever been there? Germany that is. No slums, very little violence. No space. Yet there is open space to enjoy in any metro area, spaced for everyone. You do not need a car, public transit, smaller country.
They have been running the nuclear plants without incident for 30 years. Germany has very few problems, it could be said that it the best it has ever been since the war, a Golden age. Nuclear power produces no carbon emissions, and the average plant produces 4 times the energy of a huge coal plant.
Miriam if we had plenty of resources what is the reason for being involved in the ME at all?
How will it become moot? The use of nuclear power, explain. Where is the increasing demand for energy, not just us, but china and the rest. Where do you say it is going to come from?
Environmentally the White river near Craig is basically dead due to localization of coal acids that leach into the river from the stacks nearby.
Who controls the future? Last time I checked there is no religious component in our Constitution other than a mention of a "creator" that may or may not exist. The future of our Country to the extent of control is in our own hands. Fate will always throw curves, but planning is everything. Learned that at sea. The difference between life and death. Period. I have faith, yet that is not changing what I am going to do.
Never said I had the answers, simply describing what is already in existence all over the world, we certainly do not have a monopoly on solving difficult problems.
Getting involved is waking up. For my part as a naturalized American I have focused on illegal immigration and have devoted time to that. The new age slavery is what I call it. In Co. we accomplished a lot. If you are caught employing illegals, it is now a 25,000 dollar fine for each illegal discovered. (alipac.us) Illegals are not entitled to any benefits other than emergency medical care. It's the law now. First year, we'll see how it goes.
No amount of naysaying will stop what I will do. I'm a citizen now, and do not have to restrain myself in that regard within the law.
Ah, in case you didn't notice certain parts of Islam declared war on this nation and would like to reduce it servitude in one way or another. That would be the reason we took the war to the Middle East.
Europeans always tell us we should be like them because they are so perfect. As I said, I'm not enamored of Germany. I might ask if you love it so much, why are you here? But I won't. If you want to turn America into Germany, forget it.
I said fission energy will likely become moot. Was I not specific enough?
If you want to give yourself high blood pressure, be my guest. Just don't expect me to get high blood pressure with you.
Not the love or leave it crap Miriam… again on this site? I can love and promote anthing I want in this country, within the law.
You wrote; I said fission energy will likely become moot. Was I not specific enough?
Moot is something made about points Miriam, or court cases, it is in no way specific, if you are saying that it won't be needed, I was asking, How so? A method of power production cannot be "moot" it can be economical, effiecient, inefficient, polluting, non polluting, I have not seen the word used in such a manner.
There are plenty of people who have threatened us. 911 was commited by 19 Saudis supposedly, according to government conspiracy theory, before you go there.
Kruchev said he would bury us. He had a 10 million man army, jet bombers, fighters, tanks, chemical, biological, nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and bases around the world, on every continent. I am hardly worried about the podunk arab and persian threat, we can only hurt ourselves with what we are doing. We waited out the Soviets, these people are of no magnitude of them in ANY way.
You drive a car right? We use ballistic missiles and guns to defend ourselves. We utilize the periodic chart for chemistry, and drive on freeway systems at our leisure. These are all inventions first founded by the German people, it is not that I want us to be like them culturally, but we are like them, in fact, in the usage of the things that make our life easier and hopefully healthier.
Who has high BP? Not me I assure you, however I can see that adopting good ideas from others and rejecting bad ones we currently live under is giving you trouble so I won't ask you to help out in the process.
Europeans are really beyond telling us anything realizing we will come around to what;'s good just like they did, after ridding themselves of all manner of useless, unproductive baggage. They are not talking to us much lately if you had not noticed. I can see you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder with regard to them, so I will leave it alone.
That said there is nothing like taking the 160 mph train from city to city while drinking a beer, and taking in the beautiful countryside.
..and here is a bit of America that Germans have adopted from us as they graduated into a little humility. It comes from Ben Franklin, a man after my own heart… "experience is the best teacher, and fools will learn by no other".
..and lastly, every broken man and woman from the ME for decades now, lands into Germany, a willing safe haven, to have their life saved after their sacrifice, in a place called Landstuhl. They could kick us out, but they do not. What are friends for? Even if sometimes you find them annoying.
Canada is better than Germany! Eh!
I don't know if anyone here ever said they didn't like Germany. Personally, I have no problem with the Germans. I have lived in several countries before settling in the United States and I miss and love them all. Even though some of those places I don't remember because I was too young to remember, but I remember most the people I befriended. As far as the coffee thing in Germany is concerned, oh well. I was able to get a week's worth of groceries in Canada for about 88 percent the price I would spent here in the U.S. because I used American currency. So I don't care how much cheaper coffee is in Germany. Besides, eversince Starbucks told me that they won't participate in Troop Tributes because they don't support military personel, I decided to boycott Starbucks so now I don't ever drink coffee. I prefer Chai!
Same as the US for the purpose of comparison, Germany is a better than Can. in many things. There is space in CAN, groceries are cheaper, gas about the same. Canada wins out in the space, land ownership, natural surroundings categories. As i mentioned I have lived up there, it is winter down to the beach in most of Canada, with no warm spots like down our way.
As for shopping, Canada is very expensive when you buy retail luxuries and such. Beer is expensive. Most meats are waay expensive, vegetables cheaper.
Compared to the US and Germany, Canada has an abominable problem with property crime(if you visit, watch your stuff). Violent crime, much lower than here.
I like Germany due to the actual application of great technology(especially in energy) in mainstream life. We and Canada are both in the stone age in that regard, even though we often invent the technology, we lag in its applications, because of pre-existing economies cash cows are preserved through lobbying, or actual outlawing better ideas, or better, the promotion of bad ones.
Ex. being able to write off 75% of and truck or SUV as a business expense if it weighs over 6000 lbs. You get a 25% break for buying a hybrid car. Makes sense huh?
I was figuring the Germans may find us annoying, since they have to watch re-runs of Hogans's heros on cable now over there.
The coffee thing is for Sue's benefit, since she is self proclaimed sarcastic, hard to tell in print. I explained the price differential so as to give a measure to the devaluation of our dollar. I don't drink Starbucks either, tastes like burnt coffee, because it is. I live in the town where Enstroms
candy is made, the give it away as samples in their internet coffee shop. Good coffee too. The candy would make a great gift for somebody in Iraq. Not cheap, but then, neither is the whole shabang in Iraq.
My B and L is distributing 30 dollar a pound coffee to tony restaurants, it comes from Canada, roasted there, grown in Thailand. When you drink it, it tastes "sweet" without sugar. I am told that is what fresh, properly roasted coffee is meant to taste like. Sold to Wolfgang Puck and all that type of restaurant.
As for Starbucks, I always said you could get people to eat s*** on a shingle with a little marketing. Heck, I did it for 2 years in college, and it was just done by force.
Sue the last post is meant to be generally sarcastic. I am considered very sarcastic by my friends, and have to restrain it lest people get the wrong idea.
This I learned using Franklins' adage above.
You could even say me cynical at times. It comes from my career at sea.
If you watch the Simpsons, you must have seen the Sea Captain a time or 2, his quote and my favorite, "I hate the Sea, and everythin' in it".
This attitude is developed after losing 10,000 dollars of longline gear, or gearing up for a season, only to catch nothing, and not even make expenses. You get your other days, but you can expect Davey Jones to be a regular b******, even in success. It is why I think it is called fishing, not catching, though we highline enough.
It has also made me a cynic of those that don't plan well. As even a blind chicken finds a few kernels of corn, Iraq has been a mighty dark place.
Gunther I agree that it is very hard to tell in print about sarcasm. Often here I have been made fun of by certain people for something I said in jest as they were too busy looking for things to use in their devious little manners. As you know there are a few things I am very passionate about. Starbucks coffee isn't one of them!! ha ha ha (Detest coffee by the way.) I don't watch the Simpsons, don't actually watch much tv. Found better things to do with my time. But I do understand the analogy. But as for your last statement, I do have to disagree with you. I understand you are looking at it from the point of view that there have been lives lost. But what you aren't acknowledging are the successes that our Soldiers and Marines are having every single day. But none of them get covered in the news. So, people think that there is no good going on there.
I disagree. I won't go into detailed lists as CJ and M have covered that many many times here. I am basing my opinion on the words of actual Soldiers and Marines who are right now, as we speak sitting in Iraq, with their IBA on because they have to, and wading through ankle (knee??) deep puddles to get to chow, or the showers. And still they tell me, they are where they are doing the most good. They are accomplishing a great deal. They are making a difference in the lives of the Iraqi people they are helping. So, I don't know that you and I can ever come to some sort of agreement on that issue. But I am willing to keep reading and trying to understand your viewpoint better.
I am a student of history, these(Arabs, Persians) are about the oldest people of consistent culture on Earth.
We are a very young culture.
What I am trying to impart here is that whatever good we do is a castle in the sand, the tide will come, our efforts will be washed away. Their focus culturally isn't ours. The mission to do good isn't enough if you do not understand the people.
Since the time of Rome, when Parthia(iran iraq afghanistan geographically) was to be conquered, for profit, and for the good of the local peoples, the Parthians instead knew it was really about resources and controlling trade routes, in a word, money. Crassus was the ruler of Rome that invaded.(56 bce)
When his adventure in the Parthian lands were over, his legions crushed, worn out, he was captured and put to death, by pouring molten gold down his throat, in mockery of his love of money, which was a legend by then. King Orodes was a hero after this was done, all the little people loved him.
Then the crusades, then the english, now us. It is a long pattern, and as much as I am not changing your mind, we will not have the success that we hope with the people who rule the ME, I believe. It is the little people being victimized, that we try to help. The minute we leave the little people don't get to rule, they never have. It is why we backed power in the region with saddam. Democracy is not something that is culturally like ours. It has the religious and cultural component, very unlike our own. The model does not function.
This is why I view the war as a waste. The Arabs that rule are culturally unassailable. What I fear is that in frustration we will escalate into general atrocity. I was born in Germany and the history of that affair learned as one taught by family, does not always resemble the history we are taught.
Atrocity follows when a recalcitrant people are defeated but will not act like defeated westerners. Nothing like this went on after the conquest of Germany. People lost and allies won, it was over. It is never over to a Parthian. Like wolverines, they are best left alone, the miserable creatures.
I have watched those critters interact, they do not play well with others, and for their size inflict a hell of a wound.
People will disagree immediately, I know. Along with Franklins' adage are a few more. The other kind of fools never learn, the least foolish is the person that trusts in what others have seen and done, and with their advice, avoid the lessons of experience.
Ok, I understand your point. But, I have a question. Do the Iraqi people deserve a chance to make it work? Or do we automatically throw up our hands because "That's the way it has always been?" Things can and do change Gunther. And I know that I am the eternal optimist. (Possible fatal character flaw!!) However, I had a similar discussion with a Doc who was over there '05 to '06. He and I had an amazing time because most of our time was spent debating the sense/senselessness of the troops being in Ramadi, which is where he was. Admittedly jaded by what he saw on a day to day basis, which on many occasions, when he needed to talk, he described to me in vivid detail, so I am well aware of the costs and the horrors of the war, he felt that all our troops should pull out of Ramadi, let all of the bad guys collect there, and then drop a nuke. What I pointed out to him, at that time, is that while he could not see any of the good that was happening around the rest of Iraq, there were good things happening. And at the very least, millions of people voted for the first time for the candidate of their choice, instead of a dictator telling them who they had to vote for, and were making the beginnings of a new country for themselves. I also told him that you may not be able to win over every heart and mind, but you work with the people who are willing to work. I'm sure that you see this in your business life on a day to day basis. There are MANY people in Iraq who are willing to work for something better.
My reason for telling you about this Soldier is that I now have several other Soldiers, right now, who I talk to on a daily basis, who are in Ramadi. It is a whole different city now. There is still violence, but it is NOTHING like it was a year ago. The Iraqi police patrol there, and are answering all the calls that would have been handled by the US just one year ago. The Iraqi Army, is in charge there. We are the back up. Our Engineer Battalions go out and do road sweeps on a daily basis and the roads have been relatively clear. I assure you, this was not the case a year ago. Change can happen Gunther. It does take time, but more importantly, it takes patience. A quality that the "Instant" society we have become, sorely lacks.
I agree with Gunther that the cultures of the Middle East are perhaps some of the oldest places on earth, but the good things we do are not a castle in the sand. Like my professor said, "as cultures grow old, immediate change becomes a desire". I think that how we affect the people in these countries in terms of motivating change, like bringing about a desire for democracy in Lebanon, or how Iranians are beginning to defy their government in favor of taking control of their futures over letting their government do it for them affect them largely and will bring about change in their cultures as they start to feel the old traditions aren't panning out the way their ancestors several thousands of years before them hoped it would. Since, the way the people of that area in the world aren't succeeding off of the Trans-Saharan Caravan or the Old Silk Roads like they used to.
Sue; I am not going to hold my breath. Once we leave, the Baath will move, they wait us out and we are not staying forever. Al Douri is alive, our government lied about him being caught, he is running the insurgency.
These people have dealt with many an invader, this is their way So said the english, the crusaders were to bring God to the Muslims, we wish to give them democracy. Not to beat it to death, but the current democracy is Shia based, and Iranian Shia backed. The very person who is Shia, but still against Iranian Shias, is Moqtada al Sadr, but it appears we mean to do him in. If we do then the Shia in Iran will be in total control of Iraq. That will be the point at which there will be democracy, but hoo boy, it will yield something I know we will not want.
Seal does your professor tell what happens to old cultures that get immediate change? In my study of Revolution, all that have occurred on Earth, yes I'm boring, and studied all of them, a curious thing happens.
When old cultures get new desires and act on them, what happens next is called Thermidorian reaction, after the height of the change is seen, the old guard joins the new and co-opts it, and in a very short time almost all, not all, return to where they started, or worse a despotism.
The classic example is the French Revolution, which utilized many of the precepts of our own, after the Thermidore, came Robespierres terror, in which all suspected of not honoring the ideals of the revolution lost their heads. This is 3 years after the Monarchy and Aristocracy were mostly put to death. After such chaos, a military man showed up, he was Napolean, and his despotism lasted 12 odd years, in which France rolled up empires left and right. By the time he was defeated, France returned to the Republic, but the stars in peoples eyes were well gone.
Seal, Iran has been thoroughly modernized and if we had not intervened in Iraq and started banging the war drum, the change you speak of would likely have happened. It won't happen with our military there. Promise.
The Iranians don't trust us due to our CIA deposing their democratically elected leader Mossadegh in '53. We installed the Shah, a ruthless dictator.
Did you know that at one time Iran possessed 320 F-14 tomcats? Still have most of them. They can deliver an SS-22 Sunburn supersonic cruise missile quite nicely. I would not want to be on any boat in the Gulf.
You guys be the positive, I'll be the old guy that knows these people. I realize many in Iraq want these opportunities you are giving, the issue is these people don't get to decide any more than we do about who mines our country, buys the land, gets to come and live illegally without consequence. We ourselves have been fighting for things the people want but cannot seem to get our leaders to listen.
It is somewhat endemic to the human race. The colonists that founded our Country petitioned the crown for redress, what the wanted and needed, and got nothing, until they were blue in the face. It was when they took up arms that they TOOK what they wanted.
Nobody can do it for you, we stood, France helped, and our boys did fight well. The Iraqis stand, we help and they aren't very good and get their asses kicked one on one against the insurgents.
If they do not improve massively the gig is up. When we leave. The Baath wait, we should have let them rule, De-Baathification was the biggest mistake, they should have been co-opted by us. The Sunni Baath left out of the power sharing and persecuted by us, had little choice but to become insurgents, for survival. We empowered the Shia at their expense.
The Sunni Baath will fight to the death if we continue to support the Shia. That is plain.
Gunther I don't have a lot of time this morning, so I will do a quickie here, but first, you didn't really answer my question. If it was in there somewhere, I missed it. Second, I think that freedom of thought is a luxury that we here take for granted. However, it is something that the Iraqi people are just now coming into. And it is not something they will find easily. Like the power to stand on their own two feet. It will take some time and patience. If we give up and cut and run now, what we will leave in the wake will be a disaster of epic proportions. We did not cut and run after WWII ended and leave Germany to fall into ruin. We stayed and rebuilt it. Much of what is in Germany now, had its foundations in the US dollar and sweat equity after the War. It's called reconstruction. But in the case of Iraq, you can't call it reconstruction because there had to be something there in the first place to "reconstruct". There was no infrastructure there. Saddam was happy as a piggy in slop taking all the money that was to go to his people and spend it on obscenely opulent palaces for himself and his nerdowell sons. This is a fact almost always overlooked by those who are so pessimistic about our progress. Ok, gotta go, I'm sure we can pick this up later. Have a good day.
Do they deserve a chance to make it work? Sure. Bush has told were leaving, just not when. Better take their chance while they have it as Bush is a unreliable man. He wouldn't crew on my boat NoFinWay.
In college I studied history and US foreign policy. In this, Realpolitik is how international relations operates. No permanent friends, no permanent enemies, only permanent self interest. General Douglas Kinnard taught that. He was the Commander of the Illegal Laotian invasion by us, in the Vietnam war. Nation building to him, and realpolitik adherents, is a Boy Scout affair, that usually ends in blood, and does not succeed. Or it is just used as propaganda to justify an incursion based on geo-political needs or resource extraction.
Bottom line, if you are not strong enough, you don't get be free. Realpolitik. No permanent friends, no permanent enemies, only permanent self interest. This is what the Pres has ignored, Baker tried to tell him, Powell tried to tell him, his DAD tried to tell him, I'm trying to tell him. The guy is a dry drunk moron, who, because his brain is shot, is relying on faith in a situation that requires ALL of our faculties. Stop supporting him, we absolutely need new leadership
Screw Iraq, there are nations that deserve freedom more than they do, where we are still supporting the dictator. None of this hypocrisy is lost on them I can assure you.
Under saddam if you kept your mouth shut and did not prattle on about religious nonsense you could keep an AK and 5000 rounds of ammo in your house. Women held some of highest positions in his government . Let the shia rule and SEE what happens to women. Saddam was a bad guy no excuses for him, however he was a secularist, and promoted women and Shia, as long as their politics stayed at home. It did not work, the Shia continued to call for a theocracy and saddams demise. that is why he killed them. The propaganda surrounding removing him is almost 20 years old now. You must read history prior to 92 in order to get a picture of what Iraq really is.
Apparently we still don't know.
Germans have paid for every penny of reconstruction, with interest. Unknown to most Americans the German people have paid for the facilities in Germany and soldiers salaries since reconstruction. That's right, they pay for Ramstein, they pay for the troops to be stationed there. Don't believe it. Look it up!!
Much of what we assume is in no way true.
Germans had no insurgency against allies after the war. I don't think a single occupying troop was killed. Germans beaten, honor surrender. It is with assurance that I can say Parthians NEVER do. They are your enemy, forever. best to leave them alone. Occupation of such a people will be costly no doubt. More than I would pay.
Iraq had Infrastructure before we blew it to bits, was the middle easts most modern outside of Israel and Iran. That they had no infrastructure is not correct. We destroyed it, in 91, it rotted for 13 years under sanction, and we destroyed what had been repaired, last time out. There was an infrastructure and some very modern transport network. Saddam followed Ike's path, in warring Iran, he needed mobility, he also needed to suppress the Shias and Kurds that wanted their own state, the road network helped, he built modern freeways.
Saddam was brutal, yet he was trying to keep Iraq together, the kurds and shia wanted to rule, either Iraq in entirety, or their own State.
Consider Lincoln without propaganda and the rose colored lens. He violated the Constitution and beset the south with a vengeance, in the end allowing Sherman to act as a TERRORIST, in the burning of the swath of homes and towns as his army "marched to the sea" .
Study history, humans of ambition all in all are pieces of S*** left to their own devices, there is good and evil in them, generally saying they doing their atrocity for Country or God. I'm over it, and as a populace we have to be smarter than to believe nonsensical propaganda.