Don't Let 'Em Get Up
February 28th, 2008 by Admin
Okay, I need your help here to figure out if I'm wrong or not. But you should know that even if you think I'm wrong, I'll probably still keep my philosophy about what I'm telling my kids.
One of the reasons the military has always won its wars is the concept of overwhelming force. It is our doctrine to mass weapons, equipment and personnel in a show of overwhelming force to defeat any enemy. Superior knowledge and mad skillz also plays a part!!
Anyway, Anissa asked me a question tonight about hitting someone. She asked me what she should do if someone at school hit her. My first question was a natural MI analytical response: playing or for real? I told her that if anyone ever hits her – or my other two kids – she is to beat the tar out of them until they are incapable of hitting back. Don't let 'em get up until they're defeated. If someone has the wherewithal to hit you out of anger, they deserve to get beat down like never before.
"What if I get suspended?" she asked.
"Then, I'll come home early from work and we'll have a party in your honor," I responded. "You won't be in any trouble."
I also told her that if someone hit her, she responded and got suspended, but the individual that started didn't get in trouble, I'd personally visit the school and fix the issue. I also explained that woe be unto any of my kids that throws the first punch or instigates a fight. Then, they will incur my wrath.
So, am I wrong here? Is this something I shouldn't encourage in my children? The way I see it, it only takes one beat down for a bully to get a clue that his/her actions won't be tolerated.
Believe it or not, I was a small kid growing up (stop snickering, Emily). I actually stopped growing for a year when I was about 6 or 7 and had to get growth injections. Of course, they worked just fine!! I got picked on a lot and put up with more than I should have. Then, in the ninth grade, I had had enough. A bully wouldn't back off and for the first time in my life I fought back. I beat the living hell out of the kid. He never messed with me again. Nor did any of his friends. As I moved to different schools, bullies learned quick that it's the little firecrackers that have the biggest boom. If you ask me, the only way to deal with bullies or thugs is to violently persuade them to take it some place else. And I fully encourage my children to fight until there's no fight left…in the other person!
Posted in Military Perspective
A bit of a tough situation… To me, the moral stand will be yours, to beat the hell out of the prick, but now with the liberals getting stronger, morallity is thrown out. Myself I would beat up the guy. I remember one motivational speaker who came to my school said that he encourages his kids to fight, each other when they are young but together when they grow up (both are already grown) so they can learn to fight next time.
So, I guess it is important to encourage fighting for what is right.
CJ, having gone through this with my two kids I can tell you unequivocally that what you told your children is absolutely the right thing. Now a days, the schools don't give a crap about the "good" kids. All they worry about is how much money the "bad" kids parents have when they threaten to sue the school for disciplining their little "angels".
I am a pacifist. I always have been. I got harassed and picked on and I never fought back cause I just didn't believe in it. I taught my son never to lash out, not even in anger when provoked and he got the tar beat out of him. When he was harassed and hit, it was him who was punished for hitting back. Male chauvinist pig Principals don't have any respect for women, and don't listen to them unless they have an expensive lawyer. And I didn't so I couldn't do much for my son.
But when my daughter started getting bullied, I told her to kick the living crap out of any one who came near her if they dared. No one did. I wish I hadn't tied my son's hands and made him endure for the sake of peace. In schools now a days, peace is highly over rated. Bullying is not only common place but condoned by the administrations of school. Nothing is done about it. And THIS above all else is the blame for incidents like Columbine and all the other school shootings and violence.
Our school systems are creating ticking time bombs that walk and talk and live in our homes in the disguise of our children. It can happen to any one. No one is immune. So Ya CJ. Tell Anissa to beat the living hell out of any one who dares to throw the first punch at her or Chris or Hannah. Just make sure that you teach all the kids how to fight properly so they CAN kick the living crap out of them if they need to.
No worries about that. As a level 3 combatives trained individual who also dabbled in Karate and Ninjitsu in Japan, they're well versed in the weak spots of the human body and how to get the most reaction with the least effort.
I think you did the right thing. I think too many schools have the wrong idea about "zero tolerance" of aggressive behavior (i.e. – the victim who fights back is in equal trouble with the bully). When my sister was doing some serious cleaning/organizing in her room, she came across some old children's story books she'd had tucked in her closet. They were ones my parents had gotten for my brother and I when we were kids (I was like "I remember those books!". Reading one of them, the main character is already sporting a black eye from a previous fight with a bully. I couldn't help but wonder if that story would be deemed "unacceptable" even though the fight doesn't take place within the story itself…
My kids know that they never start the fight and they never throw the first punch. Like you, my kids know they can throw the second punch and they are to finish the fight within bounds of truly not maming them. They are to use their feiry, monkey punches to blacken both eyes and bloody the lip.
Now that being said, I have a 9 year old son that is a monster. He is 4'10" and probably about 120. Alright, he is a mini-me. Now looking like a monster and being a monster is a totally different thing. He is a marshmellow though having had about 2 years karate. When he spared with girls he would run. I think him using his size to intimidate to effectively eliminate a fight before throwing the any punch would always be more productive and effective. But he knows that if his brother or sisters are being hurt, he is to hurt the hurt-er.
Like you, I would throw a party for my kids for taking care of any bully. Using words and reason should be the first line of defense but if the fist bullets are already flying, my kids know to shoot back and to use every bullet in the clip figuritively!!
I think you're right, CJ. A person who isn't taught to defend themselves will bear the brunt of every smart-aleck bully around. I can relate to the small stature and although I wasn't picked on in school (very different times than now), for many years as an adult I had my hands full. I wish I'd known how to fight to defend myself. My son is about your height and is a 5th degree black belt and 15-year instructor in American Karate. He didn't have to fight when he was in school (again, different times), but he was called "Shrimp" more often than any of us liked. Couldn't keep from smiling at your year of no growth – not funny, I know – but my son weighed 34 pounds forever and a day seems like.
Don't get me started on zero tolerance. It makes schools and administrations idiots because they don't have to decided what to do other than to send both parties out of school.
Great allegory, Chad. That's awesome. "fist bullets" "every bullet in the clip" HA!! Love it.
I agree with you CJ ! I always told my kids not to throw the first punch but if someone hit them, they were free to hit back. I had two boys so that wasn't hard to persuade them to hit back. Sometimes they would come home with a few scratches but never defeated!
It is good for kids to have martial arts training I believe. That way, they know what the punches or kicks can do to their opponents and will use it only when needed, to cripple and not maim or kill ! Gees o Pete, I'm talking about maiming and killing now!
There were 7 of us kids at home. I can remember my father telling us "Lord help you if you ever start a fight, but by golly, if there is one, you had better finish it!" But those were also the days when you could get a 'whuppin' in school, and get another when you got home. Even though rules at school were changed, I told my children the same thing. No one should have to tolerate a bully.
I think your reader friends will all agree with you. We are people with the courage of our convictions – and that includes standing up to bullies.
PS – When I was in third grade, I was asked if I was in pre-school – so I know how the appearance works to – yet, they quickly learned not to take that little girl on!
CJ, I agree. Starting a fight~don't do it. If you are hit, you must defend yourself. Nothing wrong with that.
Well…I'm not a parent but…my parents taught us that the first punch was NEVER ours but all of them after better darn well be!
Couldn't agree more.
My personal experience is that you only need to face the bully once.
If don't stop until either they stay down (or run away), word quickly gets around to 'leave that one alone'…
Ky Woman (is that the state or the jelly
)),
I got the paddle when I was in school and it worked wonders on my attitude. I got it at school, then got it twice as bad when I got home!!
I was a middle school teacher for 29 years, and I have broken up my share of fights. I've had broken glasses, sprained fingers, and bruises. I did learn very quickly, though, not to break up a girl fight. These females are viscious. They will jump on you when your back is turned. They are not the least bit shy about ripping pierced earrings out and pulling out hair by the fistful. They can beat you down.
I am not a parent, and I still don't know what I would advise a daughter about fighting. I guess that if she is taught some good self-defense moves, she has a better chance of coming out on top.
Keep praying.
This is, to me, the same philosophy that should allow college kids (with proper training) to carry concealed weapons on campus.
A bully or nut job with a sawed off shot gun will think twice about going off if he knows there are those around that will fight back and with enough force to win.
I say go for it.
I've always been pretty quite and shy. One day when I was in Jr. High School, I was standing in the gym waiting for class to start. A girl that I really didn't know at all, walked up to me with two of her friends in tow an slapped me across the face. No reason, nothing said. She just slapped me. I looked at her and said essentially that I was a bigger person than her and that she was not worth responding to. But, if she ever touched me again, she would regret it. She never bothered me again.
My father was only 5'4" and maybe 120 pounds soaking wet, so I chuckle at the "littlest firecrackers have the biggest boom" comment. My dad told me that I should never start fights or pick on other kids, but that if someone put their hands on me, I should beat the snot out of them. I have done some fancy talking to get out of physical fights, but when that didn't work — and "talking it out" doesn't always work, unfortunately — I would explode. Several girls and a few boys learned to never mess with me. I found that a good beat-down significantly shortened the "let's pick on Sheila" queue. I don't go spoiling for a fight, and haven't been in a physical fight since I was a teenager. I think you're doing the right thing, CJ. All children, but especially girls, need to know that they have the right to defend themselves.
Sometimes kids make friends after a fight. That happened with a new girl in the neighborhood and me. We got into it one day, for what reason I have forgotten, and after the fight, we realized that we didn't hate each other. We were friends for several years until I moved away. The last time I saw her, she had just joined the Marine Corps.
I tell my kids to get a teacher involved as soon as possible. If they try to go a fight alone, I'm concerned about what some of these kids have in their pocket. Most bullies, in my experience will run if you stand up to them or embarrass them. Physical fighting is a last resort, but if one of my kids had to resort to this, I would defend them to the hilt
The situation I see more is kids harrassing other kids by computer. One teacher put up a website with the good intention that kids could exchange information for class. Some kids thought it would be fun to use that system's messaging system to harrass other kids. They denied it saying their password was "guessed" but I wasn't convinced and made the teacher shut it down.
Go with your gut, CJ. Its the thing you have to live with.
David
The thing about the school that they go to, and even though it's in a nice location, the staff let the parents of the naughty run it.
The teachers policy here, when a fight breaks out, is "it's not my business".
They wait for the 60 odd year old 'security' guard that they have to come and break it up. Now, you tell me, this is a middle school and a elementary school combined, how long can a fight go on, realistically speaking, before this man hobbles over?
Hence, even though it goes against MY grain, i let Cj tell them to hit back now. You better believe the day that my kid gets knocked down, or taken by surprise and gets their ass kicked, and teachers were watching and sitting on theirs, i'll become the biggest troublesome parent up theirs. This is why we have even told their teachers nothing had better happen to our kid, because the teachers KNOW that hitting (the anger kind, not the fun) is going on and who is doing it, when they get sent to the office for defending themselves.
This school has become the biggest troublesome part of our move here. This city has some of the highest ranking schools in the nation, and we were unfortunate enough to get one that isn't that well established yet. I have no love for this school and their upfront policies to parents, yet what they really do is another thing as far as protecting my kids during the day. I could go on and on about things that these kids get away with because the school doesn't want to deal with their angry parents. They would rather placate the parents of the good kids that get caught in the middle then be honest to the parents of the ones that need to be told their kids are menaces in their schools.
I could go on, and my point was, in this school, my kids have learned that you CAN'T go to the teachers for help because they won't do anything about it.
emily
My school had several rival gangs who were heavily recruiting members. It was a rough place for a while. Then we got a principal who put her foot down and made it clear that bullying would get punished no matter how loudly the parents yelled. Having a full time police officer on campus helped, too. All the teachers wore whistles, and when we saw trouble, we called for help. We had plenty of male faculty who could wade into a conflict and stop the fight. Women teachers were told not to stop a fight. We also had some big 8th graders who were well respected on campus who would help break up the fights with words or by physically pulling them apart. The bullies ruled our campus until we had a kick-butt principal who made it very clear that fighting and bullying would not be tolerated. It also helped to have a core group of kids who routinely let the staff know when trouble was coming. Yes, snitches. We live in tough times. Two of my 8th graders murdered a store clerk for beer and cigarettes.
With the bullying and violence, it is tough for kids, parents, and teachers. Just do what you can to lead your children in the right direction.
Well, you certainly gave me something to think about. I have not had this conversation with my son-haven't had to yet. The middle school that he goes to has a wonderful prinicipal and vice-prinicipal who do not tolerate acts of violence. There have been recent suspensions including one that involved a student stabbing another with a pencil. I guess that I would tell him not to throw the first punch for sure and I would hope that his friends or a teacher would step in to help. Hitting back would be a last resort given the school situation here.
CJ, when my daughter was in kindergarten, a boy there decided he was her "boyfriend" and tried to get her to kiss him – several times. She did what I had told her to do – go to the teacher and tell her. Well, she did that a couple of times and each time the teacher talked to the boy but it wouldn't stick. So one day, D had had enough of his pawing her and all, and she whacked him across the face with her lunchbox. Bloody nose and all. His mother wanted my daughter expelled from the school and threatened to sue. The headmistress of the school took me aside when I came to pick up D and told me all this and then said, "don't worry about it. I straightened the mother out about her son and told her she might look into counseling for her 5 year old who couldn't keep his hands off little girls." And that when D did the whacking, the teachers privately cheered.
It's their hands that are tied by the fear of litigation from parents who will never believe that their little Johnny would ever do such and such. (At least until his face is on a wanted poster. ) They can't discipline the offending child in any real way because of this.
Needless to say, D did not get into trouble and she acquired the nickname "Lunchbox" and no one messed with her again. And she got a great big hot fudge sundae on the way home.
She is now serving her country.
Uhh, CJ,
Ky actually means the state. Bred, born and raised here in this great commonwealth. If you've never been here, you really should visit. Kentucky is a wonderful state. We still believe in "southern hospiltality". Y'all come visit us any time.
OH, the other ky you mentioned, has many many uses…..;-)
I agree with you. However, in our present school system they call the police for fighting and other things they could easily handle themselves. When the serious stuff hits the fan, kids already know teachers are "helpless" against them. They have already abdicated any respect kids would or should have for them. In that case you have to teach kids aabout self respect.
When my son was in middle school, he was acting up and the principle called me. I asked him what my son was doing. He told me he was acting like a grade school kid and had gotten under his desk. I suggested the teacher treat him the way he acted. I thought he would stroke out on me!
I went to school, and threatened to spank my son right there in front of his classmates if he continued to act in this manner. I also told him in the future I would come to school if necessary and sit in a desk in his classroom. End of problem!
Every year I met my kids' teachers. At that meeting I let the teachers and kids know in front of each other what they could expect from me and what I expected from them. I expected my kids to work and behave. I expected the teacher to teach and discipline as needed. I expected I would help the teacher or my kids when needed. I let them both know up front I fully supported the teacher; but, I also held them accountable if they failed to hold up their end. I also let the kids know the same thing and that the same applied to me.
I had very few teachers who felt I was not supportive.. But, the School Board hated me! My kids are both very bright; but, they had a learning disability. Both were bored when not challenged. The county had difficulty accepting that bright kids with a learning disability could handle and needed advanced placement. They were more concerned about image. I fought every darn year for them both. Finally I suggested to them that they might consider how great they looked by developing their program so kids with higher abilities could "all" meet their potential.
Both have worked steady, full time jobs since leaving high school. One graduates from VCU in May after working full time and going to school full time with a Degree in Criminal Justice. My son is the smarter one, so he took a management promotion thinking he could handle both. That prevented him from going full time. He has one more credit before he has two years at the local community college then will do as my daughter did and transfer to VCU.
Had I listened to the School Board and counselors, neither would have finished high school much lesss college. But, frequently they were harrassed because of Special Ed. help. They were also rarely the victimbut were at fault for the same reason. I refused to allow this to continue.
KIds need discipline. They need structure at home and at school. They also need fairness and patience. At times they need to walk away. At times they need to stand their ground. The trick is to teach them how to tell the difference.
One is 23 and the other is 25. They occasionally drink. Both stay out of trouble and don't "sleep" all over the place or do drugs. Unlike many of their friends, they have also not had unwanted pregnancies or the like.
I am far from an expert, believe me. But, I found what worked for us! I held onto my values and refused to give them up or not teach them to my kids. With the grace of God, I have been very fortunate to be blessed with two great, productive, and responsibe adults.
I was a single [divorced] parent with PTSD and another problem I won't go into here. I asked for help when I needed it or to check out my parenting, but more importantly, I learned to trust my instincts.
Sorry this is so long; but, I think you can see where I am leading. We do the best we can. We teach them values, consequences, morals, and respect for themselves and others and the rest is up to them. Part of self respect is defending one's self when necessary.