Close Guantanamo?
November 30th, 2008 by Amy
Men who were captured on the battlefield probably didn’t get their Miranda rights read to them, which means in a U.S. criminal trial, they win. They probably didn’t have access to high powered attorneys during their stay at Guantanamo, so I guess that means, they win again. The media would be falling all over themselves playing the angle of the poor detainees who were denied "their rights” and suffered greatly under the Bush Administration. There would be an outpouring of sympathy for the enemy. Day in and day out, the media would bring the plight of the detainees before us and make us feel guilty for their "mistreatment."
To most of us that sounds ridiculous but I bet that’s exactly how it would play out. How could anyone in their right mind possibly consider bringing some of America’s worst enemy combatants, those who have murdered our servicemen, to the U.S. for a criminal trial? If we bring them here and are unsuccessful at prosecuting them, would that mean we held them illegally for the past 5 years? Do we then become liable to compensate them for the "injustice" they suffered at our hands? Sounds absurd? No not really.
Maybe we should just send them home. But what happens then? They are free to pick up arms and resume their calling, to kill the infidel and in case we have forgotten, that's us, that's our soldiers, that's our families. We must be insane if we think the bad guys will go home and suddenly feel remorse and grow a conscience. Or perhaps we’ll think they learned their lesson and will be nice to us now.
I take granting any kind of lenience to these men as a direct a assault against all America's service men and women and their families. Do we have so little understanding of all the military has done and all they have endured, that we would side with the enemy and disregard and soldier?
Only those who are the very worst enemies of the U.S. still remain at Guantanamo. We sure don’t need to be extending them American rights, and we most certainly don’t need our own government replenishing the battlefield with ruthless killers. Maybe some decisions just shouldn’t be made by politicians. But this is just one mom's opinion.
Posted in Military Perspective
Yeah, let's explore ways of saving GITMO:
* Internationalize its administration
* Make it more transparent and accessible to the International Red Cross.
* Absolutely end torture and abusive treatment of inmates.
Let's flesh this out. I think this needs to be worked a little more.
Barry O will probably move them into the White House so he can really be their best bud.. That would be the final slap in the face to every American that loves this country and has made sacrifice after scarifice for it.
Sorry folks, but I have to weigh in here. Bush's best legacy would be if he dealt with Gitmo before he leaves. I understand why they were sent there, but they should have been dealt with by now. Create a military tribunal since their country didn't (and still doesn't) have competent judicial system and judge them accordingly. We can't arbitrarily lock people up and then have a problem when another country does it to our citizens and doesn't allow them due process.
Thankfully change is coming…
NY-David
So it sounds like this mom would be fine if we take 'em all out behind the woodshed and bust a cap in 'em. I mean seriously, if she is ok with holding some of these people for 7 years, she would be ok with us killing them instead of letting them go….
I know, how about some due process.
Let me give you an example of the "killers" that have been kept there. Five Bosnian men were just released last week after almost 7 years.
The Bosnian prosecutor who investigated their initial detention back in 2001 at the behest of the U.S. concluded they ought to be released, but the Bosnian government turned them over to the U.S. as they were being released.
One of the detainees ordered released had a wife who was pregnant at the time he was shipped to Guantanamo, who then gave birth to a daughter, now 6, whom he has never met. Another of the Bosnian-Algerians had an infant daughter at the time he was put in Guantanamo who died last year of congenital heart disease at the age of 6. Another of them suffered months of facial paralysis from a beating inflicted by Guantanamo camp soldiers. And then there's this, about one of the other detainees, Saber Lahmer:
"When we last saw Saber in November, he was in his sixth month of solitary confinement. Since August, he has seen us, his legal team, twice and a psychiatrist on three brief occasions. For a few minutes each day, he sees the camp guards who bring his meals. He has had no other human contact. The glaring lights in his cell are on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When we left the cell, we could hear Saber shouting — brief, truncated cries. We could not understand what he was saying."
We haven't just imprisoned people with no evidence in cages for years. We've kept them encaged under often brutal and extreme conditions, many in unbroken solitary confinement for years. A federal court ruled that for 5 of these men there is no credible evidence that they did anything wrong.
That is what happens when you have no trials and no law.
As a lawyer who spent significant time representing GTMO detainees in habeas matters, I can speak plainly to the fact that the Bush administration so badly mangled GTMO that we deserve what we get – even to the extent dangerous criminal elements are set free.
We can all take comfort, however, in recognizing that many of the detainees are not criminal elements but, rather, relatively harmless persons swept up in a fubar of staggering proportion (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed excluded).
Ya, they are all choir boys like Omar Khadr. Amy has earned the right to say what ever she thinks, like it or not. And Bush wanted them dealt with but too many people who are ignorant of what is really going on in the world think they should "have rights".
Thank you to all the ones here that agree with Amy. The rest can kiss my foot. (just being nice) As many of you know Amy and I both gave our sons up so that you others ^&*(^(*^ can have your say. I really believe some of you need to live in these other countries.
FYI. The doctrine of habeas – dating back to the Magna Carta circa 1215 – requires only that evidence of guilt be presented. My role was not to establish guilt or innocence, but to require the government to satisfy some baseline threshold of credible evidence.
As Doug correctly reports above, there are detainees in GTMO against whom the government has no credible evidence of doing anything wrong. Their continued detention is a travesty that will reward America with a black eye for decades to come!
PS. sue, note that nowhere in my comments above do I suggest there are not guilty folks in GTMO.
Thanks, ladies. I'll stay in the greatest country in the world.
To be clear, no one suggests that Amy doesn't have the right to say what she wants. She didn't get that right due to the heroic sacrafice of her son, but the country that she lives in and the sacrafice of her son as well as many before him.
I don't believe that many at Gitmo are innocent, just that there needs to be a process in place to deal with it before the quadmire it has become.
Amy and Sue, thank you again for your sons' sacrafice.
NY-David
I'll never understand why Amy, Mickey & Co. don't care that innocent people were swept up along with the guilty, and are OK with them being held without trial or counsel.
Let me put it in a way you can understand: if the police were searching your neighborhood for a serial killer and picked you up because you matched the description, would you rather sit in prison forever, or would you like to be able to hire a lawyer and state your case for innocence?
This issue raises many complexities that I don't think were originally intended. Foremost, if detainees are afforded access by appeal to federal courts, their detention morphs into something more like criminal confinement. Along this logical line, the Soldiers who detain someone in Afghanistan or other places around the world are in effect executing an apprehension for the purposes of criminal prosecution.
This smells alot more like law enforcement. Where do we then have the authority to execute a law enforcement apprehension in another country with their own sovereign laws?
I've discussed this with an O5 Army lawyer who agrees that this is all very problematic, and has yet to be sorted out. We've released many detainees in effort to protect sources, etc., but there are cases where no one wants them. We'll only exacerbate the problem once we bring them onto US soil, especially if they claim assylum.
There are tribunals and case reviews that do and should identify those who shouldn't be confined.
I agree with the concepts of human rights, but there should be a better system then affording these non-citizen detainees with the same rights. We may have a selective memory. If we were to categorize them as POWs, we can and have held them, even on US soil for very long periods of time.
I don't agree that US courts are the right venue. Returning them to their nation of citizenship doesn't always work either (ala the Chinese who have an even worse human rights record).
It seems there are some legal issues that have to be worked out. You don't ask a lawyer if something is legal, you ask them how to do it legally. They have to figure this out for us in a way that makes more sense then the appearance that they are afforded these "rights". Back to a military tribunal system? How does the Supreme Court even have authority on this point? It isn't a constitutional issue.
Doug,
I may not like it, and will try and prove my innocence of course, but these men are being held for PLANNING to kill YOU. They may not have committed their act of murder yet, but be thankful that they can't.
I am going to volunteer in my country's armed forces, and I have to say that if the mission calls for the capture of everyone fitting a certain description, I would do it. I won't waste time conducting a face to face interview with a cup of hot tea.
"She didn't get that right due to the heroic sacrafice of her son, but the country that she lives in and the sacrafice of her son as well as many before him."
NY David, not sure what that means but it sounds like you just said what you didnt say!! The sacrifices of Adam and Jason like all those who died before them DID indeed earn Amy the right to speak her mind. Amy and Mickey as Gold Star Moms paid an enormous price to be able to say what they want. I am not a Gold Star Mom and have never said I was. I don't know where you got that from that I am, but it wasn't from me.
And Doug, I don't see where I have said I don't care that innocent people MAY have been swept up in this. But what you and a lot of others simply fail miserably to understand is that we are NOT dealing with an easily identifiable enemy, though he is real and he is so incredibly dangerous that I would imagine that sometimes people will be caught up in it wrongly, and their identities will have to be sorted out and they will have to be dealt with. And your example is ridiculous because as an American Citizen, I DO have rights in MY country. I would not have been on a battlefield with a bunch of evil terrorists and considered an enemy combatant.
Don't blame our military or the President, blame those who think that we are dealing with humans that are thinking and caring individuals who regard human life as sacred, instead of what they really are, animals who would do you harm simply because you are NOT a Muslim. (Hmmm, call me crazy but that sounds an awful lot like the profiling that WE are forbidden to do.)
They don't much care about YOUR civil rights and they didn't care about Nick Berg's either when the removed his head from his body. Nor did they care for the rights of the Soldiers who's bodies they burned and beat and dragged through the streets and hung from a bridge. But I know you don't think of those kinds of things when you are criticizing OUR country.
This is a country of inherent good. We are not perfect. Though for the last 232 years we have striven to make the changes to bring us closer to it. Our Constitution has been amended many times in an effort to make things right. We are a work in progress and our Constitution is a living document.
We are for the first time dealing with an undefined broad based enemy that seems to be everywhere and has no feelings towards human life, civil liberties or any freedom that we as Americans hold so dear. Yet you whine about THEIR rights and THEIR being mistreated and THEIR due processes not being giving.
If having them sit there at GITMO eating gourmet food, getting fatter than houses while spitting and urinating and throwing feces on our Soldiers who are just doing their jobs while this gets sorted out is what has to happen, well then so be it.
Ignorance of the enemy we are facing is no excuse to let them go. When they come at us Doug, they aren't going to say, "Oh no, we will spare Doug and his family because he thinks we have rights." They are going to kill you, your family, everyone you hold dear and they aren't going to care one bit that YOU have rights, or that you stuck up for theirs.
We do the best we can in this confusing tumultuous world. If we had just tried them through the military tribunals and disposed of them quickly this wouldn't be an issue. But of course, THEY have rights, so now we have a mess.
Hi Sue,
My moshed up explaination was an attempt to say that one who has lost a life in battle has no more rights then the rest of us to speak their mind. Certainly no less. If I missed the fact that you're not a Gold Star Mom, then my bad.
You are right, Nick Berg's killers didn't concern themselves with his rights before they beheaded him. The problem is that if we don't consider someone's rights, we sink down to their level. I agree some of these people are filthy, disgusting animals. If there are guilty, they should be hung by their toenails. If they are innocent, they should be let go and told to not let the door hit them on the way out. Perhaps they could also spread the word that when they hear US forces are in the area, they should leave, lest they get caught in the cross fire.
I don't think they should be arbitrary let go and I do lay this one on the president's feet. He chose to let this fester.
You are right, we don live in a confusing tumultous world and yes, they have rights, so we have our mess. Its not easy being us. No one ever said it was. But its pretty damn great.
NY-David
My problem with "their" rights David, is that they are terrorists and NOT American citizens and there for do not by birth or any other law deserve or command the same kind of rights as an American citizen.
We as Americans are not afforded the same rights as the citizens of other countries in their courts around the world, nor are Americans given the right of Habeaus Corpus or anything else for that matter in those countries. So why should a terrorist who was swept up off the battlefield after killing and maiming Americans, or just before he carried out his objective to do so, be afforded the rights those same Americans gave their lives to secure for our citizens.
They should have been tried in the Military Courts as Bush wanted them to be but was stopped from doing so. They are Military combatants who were doing wrong and should be dealt with by the Military. They do NOT belong in US courts with US laws and US judges and US juries. I agree that if they were wrongfully picked up, send them back. Only problem with that is that their own countries DON'T want them back. They know they are no good and don't want them.
I agree that if we hideously torture the prisoners and I mean really torture them like our people have been tortured around the world, then yes David, we have stooped to their level. If they are thrown before a Kangaroo court and given a mock trial and taken out back and shot at dawn then yes David we have stooped to their level.
But kowtowing to their every religious and dietary need, is hardly something I would call violating their rights till we sort out what it is that should be done with them. If we had stooped to their level, these men would all be dead by now.
I do agree, it IS great to be us. But it also sucks because everyone in the world loves to point a finger at us and say how bad we are and all the things we do wrong, (Wait, maybe thats the American Media I'm thinking of. . .) but there is never anything about what we do right. If we had just minded our own business the whole rest of the world would be speaking German or Japanese right now. But thats not what we are all about. Wise or not, foolish or not, we are Americans and we are all about helping those who can't help themselves. That's why we are in this situation.
As I said, we are a Nation of inherent good, and despite all those who hate us, we still do the right thing. It might take us a while to figure out what the right thing is, but we get there, and we correct our mistakes and punish the ones who did wrong. It just makes it that much harder when there are lawyers who all think they need to be in the spot light and throw monkey wrenches into everything that helps to create boondoggles like we have now. They don't ALWAYS have other peoples best interests at heart.
sue:
Doug pointed out above that NO credible evidence existed to prove allegations of terrorism against 5 Bosnians just released. Others, too, have been released because there is no credible evidence to support allegations of terrorism. Your bald-faced assertion, then, that all GTMO detainees are terrorists is not well taken and poorly supported.
PS. You need to brush up on your knowledge of habeas. It was instituted in 1215 and is one of the most enduring legal writs in the world nearly 800 years later. Your assertion that Americans are not entitled to bring petitions for habeas relief outside of the US is flat out wrong!
Just made my hands sore, clapping for Sue's comments!!!
Thank you David.
Sue, Thank you not only for the comments but for standing up myself and many Gold Star Moms. I do not that at least one of those there at GITMO was captured a few days after Jason was killed from a home were the IED was made and placed. He was in a hided wall discovered a day or two later. So I will support keeping them at GITMO for as long as needed. So, yes NY David we do have a mess. But I disagree that it is all the presidents fault. The real fault lies with many Americans that i feel have to much time on their hands. so many want to shout about Human Rights, and many other things like taking GOD out of our schools, gov ect…. But they are the first to back down on what is really right. Many of these people that are on Hold are TERRORIST and will not us kill us and our families with no questions. ask. Yes, there many be a couple that are there due to being the the wrong place at the wrong time, but so was my son and all the others of our Fallen. Like I said before: God Help Our Country.
Let me correct a few mistakes: #
By Mickey on Dec 5, 2008
Sue, Thank you not only for the comments but for standing up myself and many Gold Star Moms. I do know that at least one of those there at GITMO was captured a few days after Jason was killed from a home were the IED was made and placed. He was in a hided wall discovered a day or two later. So I will support keeping them at GITMO for as long as needed. So, yes NY David we do have a mess. But I disagree that it is all the presidents fault. The real fault lies with many Americans that i feel have to much time on their hands. so many want to shout about Human Rights, and many other things like taking GOD out of our schools, gov ect%u2026. But they are the first to back down on what is really right. Many of these people that are on Hold are TERRORIST and will kill us and our families with no questions. ask. Yes, there many be a couple that are there due to being the the wrong place at the wrong time, but so was my son and all the others of our Fallen. Like I said before: God Help Our Country.
The most dangerous terrorist in the world are kept at GTMO. Believe me I was at that shitake [edited by cj] hole in the world. While I was there I did not see one prisoner abused, but many guards were placed in situations which caused them harm. We should have executed the terrorist 7 years ago after we weeded out the bad and the worst and we would not have this problem today. Yes, I said execute the terrorist!
One more comment,
Everybody wants to give the terrorist due process. They are individuals who do not believe in due process just jihad "Holy War". Ask the victims of 9/11. Oh I'm sorry you can't ask the victims. Because the terrorist did not give them due process!
If they are indeed criminals, whether against the US or other peaceful nations of the world, the should be brought to justice.
My proposal:
General population among the 50 states major prisons.
Let them get equal justice.
If they die in general population, justice has been served by those who are committed, even if it is by those who are imprisoned, it would still be by Americans.
They hate us, we can"t pander to their values, we must remain strong to ours.
If we are to give them habeus, they should get what the African American gets in Compton, a chance to live out their life inb prison. If not Guantonamo, who cares.