Patriot What Have We Done?
November 10th, 2006 by Patriot
I honestly find it hard to disagree with the following letter from a fellow Soldier in Iraq. I don't want to agree because I'm NOT ashamed to be called an American. I'm ashamed to call some people American, but I'll never be ashamed of my country. I just can't find it within me to debate this letter…
This letter was sent to radio host Rusty Humphries.
I know you probably get a lot of messages asking you to read stuff on your show, but I BEG you to read this…… I would like you to tell America exactly what they did to their soldiers on Tuesday, and what WE think about our countrymen right now.
"I hope you are satisfied with what you have done…
Today in the mess hall, where there is usually jovial conversation, there was silence, long faces, and broken spirits… Everyone, to include all American soldiers, marines, sailors, airmen, Iraqi Nationals, Bulgarian Soldiers, etc, etc… was speechless, tired, demoralized and stunned…. all ate in erie silence…..
Last night, while we watched the press conference with the President, there was utter discust, and the common feeling amongst us all that we soldiers are now the loneliest people on Earth…. we fight an enemy over here, and we have a country full of enemies to go home to that are our countrymen. We watched President Bush say his own political funeral, our commander and chief.. as well as ours….. He tried so hard to spin it, but… well.. there is no way to soften such a morale blow.
While you sit and Monday morning quarterback what we work so hard to do for you out here, just know that the spirit of your team is wounded….. YOU liberals, you America have done a great job of demoralizing us… Thank you.
Do us a favor though, when we do come home, spare us the ceremony……. We all now know that it is a bunch of crap, and what you think of us…….
I have to say that right now, I would rather be a pussy ass Frenchman, even though they have no will to fight, at least they have the balls to make a decision and stick with it…… They stuck to thier guns about staying out of this war, even if it was the wrong decision……America on the other hand, goes off half cocked, and when the decision appears to be a hard one, or something that might cost a little bit, they turn tail and run…..
WHAT A NATION OF PUSSIES!!!!
This week I am NOT proud to say that I am an American……….I think it is obvious why… See, we just have told the world that we are not a nation of people who are tough, and will fight for what we believe in… We have told the world that we are a giant coward that will shy away from any difficult challenge…
So, while you eat your cheetos, and sit there and watch your lazy ass get fatter, dumber and happier Joe Citizen.. Just remember this, I, and all my commrades payed a dear price to come this far and have you decide that we should fail…
Realize this, because of your action this week America…. do not expect so many men to be so willing to stand up for your next little whim just to be cut down in the middle of it all…………
Realize this also.. you have just put a heavy price on the heads of us all…… Now that we are branded as cowards, we are an easy target, oh so inviting for the taking……. I swore to protect your children in your beds…. yet you fling the door wide open inspite of me to invite the scourge…. Well…. have it your way then.
Because of this, September 11th will soon be overshadowed by these same enemies.. my advice to you is get your lazy, self centered ass up and make peace with your God, and your family.. cause, time will come when they may not be there for you…………….Because you kicked me in the teeth, and so many others, I know I won't any more.. "
Aaron.
[Note from CJ: Sorry for barging in, but I have to caveat this as I did in the comments. I just want people to see it here as well.
And let me add something as well. I feel very similar to the writer in spirit, but I KNOW that there are thousands of Americans who are VERY supportive of us. We proved it during the cookie drive and continue to prove it at places like Soldiers Angels and Adopt A Platoon.
However, the sad fact is that they obviously can’t be in the majority or the elections would have come out somewhat different. OR, they would have come out the same but for DIFFERENT reasons. Exit poll after exit poll concluded that 70% of Americans voted with the Iraq War in mind. Who’s fighting that war? We are. Overwhelmingly, with few (but vocal) exceptions, soldiers have tried to tell America that their mission is noble in spite of the violence. And in spite of the violence, we we continue to reenlist and volunteer to go back.
Instead of listening to the people on the ground the American people listened to partisan political hacks who’s ONLY goal was to dethrone the Republicans NOT protect this country. Now, that is our perception. My hope is that it is not our reality.
Finally, let me say that while I’m disappointed I’m not demoralized. I am responsible for my destiny. Happiness is a CHOICE, not a burden. I choose to be happy and I choose to love my work and my country. I just don’t want any readers here thinking we are speaking of YOU (unless you voted for Murtha, then I’m talking to you, demoralizer). That’s all I have to say about that.]
I have heard whispers of this utter demoralization of our troops after the elections. I can't stand the thought of all those guys thinking we abandoned them and that the Democrats being voted into office is a comment on our thoughts of their abilities. Bush folding like a house of cards and Rummy bailing the day after is just a bad, bad, BAD message all around. It makes me sick.
If any deployed guys are reading this, there are a significant number of us who DO support you, your mission, and are grateful for your sacrifices. We will work hard and tirelessly to make sure it all was not in vain. God Bless you guys.
And let me add something as well. I feel very similar to the writer in spirit, but I KNOW that there are thousands of Americans who are VERY supportive of us. We proved it during the cookie drive and continue to prove it at places like Soldiers Angels and Adopt A Platoon.
However, the sad fact is that they obviously can't be in the majority or the elections would have come out somewhat different. OR, they would have come out the same but for DIFFERENT reasons. Exit poll after exit poll concluded that 70% of Americans voted with the Iraq War in mind. Who's fighting that war? We are. Overwhelmingly, with few (but vocal) exceptions, soldiers have tried to tell America that their mission is noble in spite of the violence. And in spite of the violence, we we continue to reenlist and volunteer to go back.
Instead of listening to the people on the ground the American people listened to partisan political hacks who's ONLY goal was to dethrone the Republicans NOT protect this country. Now, that is our perception. My hope is that it is not our reality.
Finally, let me say that while I'm disappointed I'm not demoralized. I am responsible for my destiny. Happiness is a CHOICE, not a burden. I choose to be happy and I choose to love my work and my country. I just don't want any readers here thinking we are speaking of YOU (unless you voted for Murtha, then I'm talking to you, demoralizer). That's all I have to say about that.
[...] Over at our sister site, Soldiers Perspective, Patriot has a post up that speaks volumes about my feelings regarding this election. Follow the link to read this post in full, but as a teaser, read an excerpt here from a letter written by a Soldier currently in Iraq, that was sent to the Rusty Humphries radio show: Realize this, because of your action this week America…. do not expect so many men to be so willing to stand up for your next little whim just to be cut down in the middle of it all………… [...]
That letter breaks my heart. As LL stated, there are a lot of us who do support the troops (and their mission). God bless you all.
My heart aches too. And I'm so angry that a soldier from this country has to write a letter like that! All our warriors deserve so much better than what just transpired.
I have tears! I had this discussion with my infamous liberal boss who said that NOW the people have spoken. My comment was that the MSM propaganda machines worked on the people who havent got a brain to think for themselves and haven't a clue as to what is really going on. Any Soldier, Sailor,Airman, Marine, etc reading this, you are not alone. You are not forgotten, you have not been abandoned by everyone. There are still many of us here who think that you are amazing, true Heroes. We appreciate you and love you for EVERYTHING you do for us. Please don't give up. WE know you are doing the right thing. WE understand why you are there. Please don't lose your spirit. Stand tall, stand proud, even if its not that you are an American at the moment, but because you are a Military Man/Woman and you are fighting the good an Noble cause, even if the morons dont understand that yet. And I say YET because there will come a day when they WILL understand when the blood is running in our streets. My only prayer at this point is that the terrorists can somehow manage to blow up the people who "spoke" on Tuesday and not me or my family!! God help us all. To Aaron, just wish you were one of MY Soldiers!!
[...] What Have We Done? [...]
[...] What Have We Done? [...]
Both my heart and stomach hurt after reading Aaron's letter. I just want to cry. I'm trying not to loose faith in our country but the election sure makes it hard. I support our troops and the war 100%. I pray for you daily. Please know there our many who believe in you. Don't loose the faith because when you do all is lost. God bless you and yours.
Every person in America should read this letter. What a sad day it is when our soldiers feel abandoned. Though they should know there ARE people who support them and what they're doing. I sure as heck didn't want the US to be a wussy country who backs out of things, but thanks to the democrats…. It's too bad so many people here have their heads up their butts. I say there's a reason why the democratic symbol is an ass. God bless all of our servicemen and women who are doing such a tremendous job, and God bless America.
As the loved one of someone who is currently serving in Iraq and the mother of a soldier, I have felt many of the same sentiments over this past week. I've not talked to SNAFU since the elections took place, but know that the election results are probably causing much concern for himself and his brothers and sisters in arms right now. I also work at Fort Hood and amongst soldiers every day. Most of the soldiers there aren't being vocal about what their future holds but you can see it in their eyes and the way they carry themselves. Most of them are proud of the work they do, proud to serve in the finest military in the World. Like CJ, I hope and pray that what has come to pass won't negatively affect our troops. I tend to try to look on the positive side of everything and will continue to do that. No, I'm not demoralized, but will be veiwing things with some trepidation and worry. I hope that the Dems do stand up and do what's right….. SUPPORT OUR TROOPS and the job they've been tasked to do. Theirs is NOT an easy job and it's our DUTY as US Citizens to continue to support them in every way possible. THEY DESERVE NO LESS THAN OUR COMPLETE SIPPORT!
I suggest you go to stars and stripes and and the infamous all of a sudden liberal military times to read letters from soldiers who respectfully disagree.
To all our fighting men and women,
It breaks my heart that you would feel you have been abandoned. You must know, though, that you have given some Americans way too much credit. Many of those who voted "to teach the Republicans a lesson" didn't think beyond their anger at their Republican Representatives and Senators. They were thinking in anger and never considered what their actions would do to you in the field. I ticks me off, but I am safe here at home thanks to you all and if I could, I would teach them all a lesson to spare you the pain this has caused.
There are millions of us who did vote for those who support our troops in word and action, unfortunately we didn't make up the majority. Please don't give up on us…we have not nor will we give up on you!
mudkitty, I think we're all well aware that there are some of our military men and women who support the changes that have been made in our Government, BUT, are they the majority? Like I stated earlier, I work at Fort Hood, which is one of the largest, if not the largest army installation. We have around 20,000 troops or more that are there. That's not counting the ones in 1st Cav and III Corps who just left for Iraq within the past 2 months. Believe me when I say that the morale and attitude amongst these soldiers has been subdued tremendously since the elections took place. At this point, I don't have a crystal ball to foresee what the Dems will do….. so all I can do is wait and HOPE for the best, HOPE that they indeed support our Troops the way they should be supported.
I'm sorry, I respect that soldier's opinion. He is over there, I am not. However, his letter drips with a kind of anti-civilian hubris and useless machismo and I cannot see any logic in his point or his supporting argument.
He is demoralized because the majority of American citizens got fed-up with a secretive, moralizing, overly-religious, and borderline fascist government run by big business fat-cat whores who have time and again used the lives of America's children as capital with which to buy market shares in the middle-eastern oil economy?
I can understand him wanting to finish the job they started, and get it done right, and his belief that the Democrats will [expletive deleted] this up because they will be too busy trying to lynch the Republicans for the next two years is not unfounded. But militarily speaking, Iraq was a botched operation from day 1, it is painfully obvious that George Bush cares [expletive deleted]-all about the lives of American soldiers, and the invasive, and patently unconstitutional, anti-terror laws he has passed have moved this country closer tyranny then any thought we'd ever be.
Here's the truth: Iraq is about Oil. Iraq is about making the rich richer and using the poor, using the young, and using the future of America to do so.
The time was ripe for change, I love my team, I will never root against them, I would never root for my team to lose or to fail, but the Coaching Staff and Front Office have to go. They have screwed up too much, and their reluctance to admit their mistakes and adapt to find a strategy that works, all the while we are dragging our dicks through the dirt wasting lives and money with no real goal or no real plan for victory, was their downfall. Not the Liberals, the number of Liberals in the country didn't change since 2004, what happened is the Independant Middle (who most often vote conservative) got sick of ineffective policies, and ideologues who are all sizzle and no steak, running our country. [expletive deleted] the rich, [expletive deleted] cheap oil, bring the troops home or give them the liege to do what is required and necessary, and keep the politicians the [expletive deleted] out of it.
Watch the language there, Lobo. No need at all for that.
[...] A letter from a soldier in Iraq at A Soldier's Perspective – "What Have We Done?" [...]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a family oriented site? I do believe that one of the rules here is that we're not supposed to make posts full of profanity, am I right? Lobotomatic, while I respect your opinion just as I do everyone else's opinion, what you have to say would be much more effective without the profanity. After about the 2nd *F* word, quite frankly, I quit reading what you had to say.
The troops got the message
The results of the election continue to ripple outward, and the troops in Iraq react. Hat tip: A Rose By Any Other Name…
Let me start by saying that I held my nose and voted to re-elect my do nothing republican congressman who does not respond to his constituants, does not put out newsletters, does not solicit opinions from us, does not have town hall meetings, just votes the straight party line. I really had no reasonable alternative. That being said, I can understand why someone with a good alternative might not have done so. I'm not saying Murtha or Pelosi are good alternatives, but when one party is in power for too long, they get arrogant and start doing whatever they want instead of what their constituants want.
For example, last year, while the BRAC commission was recommending removal of an air guard fighter wing that protected the area near my home, my congressman and his puppetier, Tom DeLay, completly ignored that and focused instead on passing a federal law in an attempt to overrule the Florida state court's decision on Terri Schaivo. This was from the party that advertise themselves as favoring a smaller, less intrusive federal government. Two or three republicans have recently resigned in shame for taking bribes, then there's Foley, who appears to have been protected by the Republican leadership, which at best looked the other way for months if not years. If you claim the moral high ground while you are admitting to taking bribes and approaching young boys on the internet, people are going to start thinking something is wrong.
On the war, if President Bush had replaced Rumsfeld before the election instead of after, the Republicans would probably still be in power. I wrote a question to Patriot in his Nov 4 post about Rumsfeld that was never answered – I would like a response to that. Army captains on the ground in Iraq are quoted as being disappointed that they go to an area, clear it of insurgents, then have to move somewhere else and let the insurgents come back. Is that the right way to fight a war? Americans want to win, and if 140,000 troops are not enough, then by golly, lets get enough to get control of the country. It seems counterproductive to clear an area, move on, and then have to come back 6 or 12 months later to clear it again. Why not take and hold the area? I think Rumsfeld was too consumed with doing the job with a smaller number of troops. He even resisted increasing the total number of troops authorized for the Army. That just does not sit right while we are fighting two wars.
The President had made it clear that he would stick with Rumsfeld no matter what, and I think Americans did not like that. I don't have military experience, so I suspect you will discount my questions and probably call me part of the problem for being a civilian and questioning the great Rumsfeld, but in a democracy aren't we supposed to question our leaders? I don't think we're supposed to blindly follow someone just because they are a republican.
No, we're not supposed to blindly follow someone just because of their party affiliations…take that any way you see fit…because it DOES fit both parties. We as thinking Americans are not supposed to take everything that's said by the MSM, wacko bloggers, or those in authority, as truth. We should be trying to find answers for ourselves and vote accordingly. My findings are that the great majority of our Armed Forces are proud of the job they're doing and want to finish it with honor – for them and for our country. Seems to me that the opinions of the very people who are putting their lives on the line for the rest of us to gripe, b*tch & complain have been totally ignored by the people who voted for "change" on Tuesday – a totally childish reaction. I don't agree with a lot of things either party has done or said, but I do want my family and country protected and I DO appreciate and support the people who are doing that job extremely well! My thanks to you all!
You bring up some valid questions Anthony and unlike Lobo's profanity filled post, I took the time to read yours. I for one, don't hold a lot of faith in any politician and I've made that clear here before. Myself, I think it's time that those in power, Democrat or Republican, start listening to the people instead of following their own personal agendas, like they all have been doing for years. I believe with all my heart that President Bush supports the men and women of our military with all of his being. Not so sure I can say that about many politicians. I know from dealing with military personnel daily that one of their biggest concerns is that they won't have the support of our government leaders and that they won't be allowed to finish the job that they've started. The men and women of the military, take great pride in the job they've been given and take great pride in knowing that we American's can sleep better at night because of their actions. Quite honestly, I think this pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole affair:
Well the graphic I was going to end my post with didn't post, so I'll just say what it said, because it's exactly how I feel:
FORGET POLITICS…. SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!
I'm sorry. Not trying to offend anyone who doesn't like the "swears", just putting my opinion out straight and unedited.
One of CJ's rules here at ASP is that this IS a family oriented site, and he has asked time and time again that the profanity be left off the site. ASP and the people who post here work very hard to maintain a highly professional site (and do quite well at that, I might add) and I just think those of us who post comments here should honor CJ's request. I've been known to spout expletives myself, but also learned over the years, that for people to take you and your opinion seriously, the expletives are best left unposted. They greatly detract from the point you're trying to make.
Good grief, why don't you blame the one man who sent you there in the first place, and his SecDef who insisted on a minimal number of troops to prove his transformation theories? After 3 1/2 long years, it has become obvious to most Americans that no visible progress is being made, quite the opposite actually. Not to mention so stripping the troop levels and aid to Afghanistan that the Taliban have been able to stage a comeback. If someone promoted a strategy that had a chance of making headway, I'd support it, but there is no evidence of such a strategy. Simply put, we went in with just enough troops to overthrow the regime, but not enough to take its place. So now almost all the quality of life indices (death rate, health care, malnutrition, education) are worse than under Saddam and the sanctions. About 1.2 million Iraqis are refugees, and between 200,000 and 600,000 have died (plus about 2X wounded). Can you blame Americans for being sick of a war that we started, was based on reasons that evaporated, and shows no signs of progress?
I personally wanted to fire 99% of the politicians on both sides of the aisle for one reason or another. Neither side has done very well for us as a country, drifting away from the original concepts of their respective parties as they have.
So, the Dems control the house and senate now ~ we need to keep after them all, both sides, to do right by our troops. We here at home have to stand up for our troops as they are busy fighting a war and doing their part. I don't really give a hoot what you think of the war but our troops are citizens of this country and we need to stand by them. That's our part. So let's see if we can't make the politicians WHO WORK FOR US, put their money where their mouths are. Keep watch and write often! Let's flood their offices with our expectations and let the troops know we're fighting for them as they fight for us.
That is all ~ thank you.
[...] Credits: A soldiers Perspective, What Have We Done? [...]
Well said yankeemom. I posted this over at my blog as well. Should be interesting, to say the least, to see what everyone's thoughts are on this.
[...] Still, this entry gives me pause. After a very angry letter said to have come from a soldier within Iraq in response to the elections and President Bush's speech (presumably where he spoke of co-operation and that things would have to change), he says this: And let me add something as well. I feel very similar to the writer in spirit, but I KNOW that there are thousands of Americans who are VERY supportive of us. We proved it during the cookie drive and continue to prove it at places like Soldiers Angels and Adopt A Platoon. [...]
I whole heartredly agree with Aaron. I am passed disappointed. I am angry beyond reason. I feel betrayed. It's like living in the 60's again only the people at home can't seem to realize we have en enemy out there who wants to destroy us all – now. The Shadow party has already started its push for impeachment proseedings or hearings. MoveOn.Org has also started it email campaigns. They are insisting on a troop pull out now.
We must by email or whatever means start a major support campaign for the President to force Congress to do the right thing. We must let Congress know that we are aware that the recent victories was much more than the Democratic Party. The huge upset was driven by the 527's, their email campaign and using the internet to reach out to thousands. If they can do this why can't we? Go read the agenda for Progressive Democrats of America, the Progressive Caucus, MoveOn.org, the "Shadow Partry," ACORN and the other groups.
These 527's may control the Democratic Party and Congress, but they do not control us!!
I have to agree with Aaron and his assessment of this week%u2019s election. I am pissed that the American electorate is so fickle, at the start of the war there was great support for it but now after the constant drumbeat of negative press and insincere politicians an apparent large portion of Americans have decided to withdraw there support. Leaving the brave men and woman serving in Iraq feeling abandoned, and giving the Islamic extremist a sense of victory. Their obvious elation in the shift in power to the appeasers can be seen in all the statements coming from the terrorist organizations and their supporters. This makes our soldiers jobs that much harder and puts them in greater danger. I and many of my friends pray daily for their efforts, and continually thank God that there are so many brave young people who are willing to serve and make the sacrifice that they do. My son just returned from his 2nd tour in Iraq the Sunday prior the election. I am glad he is home, and could not be more proud of him and his fellow soldiers.
Glenn, please pass along our resounding "WELCOME HOME" and "THANKS" for a job well done. If he's interested in blogging about his experiences or joining the team, let me know.
Glenn, Please pass a Thank you and a Welcome home on to your son from me.
Glenn, I want to join in with a hearty WELCOME HOME to your son and THANKS for the sacrifices he and your family have made in defending Freedom around the world.
[...] Stumbled across this letter, allegedly from a soldier, decrying the result of the midterm elections as a terrible blow to morale: Last night, while we watched the press conference with the President, there was utter discust, [sic] and the common feeling amongst us all that we soldiers are now the loneliest people on Earth…. we fight an enemy over here, and we have a country full of enemies to go home to that are our countrymen. We watched President Bush say his own political funeral, our commander and chief.. as well as ours….. He tried so hard to spin it, but… well.. there is no way to soften such a morale blow. [...]
I'm a Grandmother/Great-Grandmother from Pennsylvania who knows very little about war stratagy, therefore I'm here to ask the REAL military experts (soldiers and their families) a question that's been driving me bonkers. I keep hearing President Bush and other Republican politicians saying we can't leave Iraq until we have VICTORY… until we've WON, but none of them ever say how we'll KNOW when that mission is accomplished. I'm hearing lots of that same sentiment here. Would someone please please please tell me EXACTLY how we will know when we've won this war in Iraq?
I'm ashamed to confess this here, but I voted a straight Democratic Ticket, not because I don't support our brave soldiers, because I swear to God I do, but I really want you all to come home now, and be happy and safe and with your families. I don't want anymore of you precious, young people to die or be injured. I want you all to have a chance to grow old and have grandbabies and I thouhgt there might be a very slight chance that the Democrats might do more to get you out of there more quickly. Truthfully, I'm sorry to say, I don't have much confidence in the Democrats protecting you any more than the Republicans have been doing, but MAYBE (please, God) there's a chance.
That said (from the deepest part of my heart)…. I want to ask my question once again, in case you missed it. How will we know when we have victory in Iraq? Are there 10 specific things we'll see when we have won this war? Five things? Is there just ONE SIGN that will be positive proof that we've won, war's over, everyone go home?
Thank You again and God Bless You, God Bless You, God Bless You!
Love,
Shazzy
Shazzy,
I believe you voted with the best of intentions in your heart. And I can't speak of war strategies either, I'm sure that Patriot, Cpl M, and CJ will be happy to answer that part of your question. But what I will tell you is that you sound like millions of other Americans who don't ever talk to the boots on the ground Soldiers and Marines, and only listen the the CRAP that the MSM shoves down everyones throat. And that is that we are LOSING in Iraq. This is NOT the case. It IS a hard fought battle and people complain all the time that the Iraqis aren't standing up for themselves. Shazzy listen to the news. EVERY SINGLE ONE of the attacks is on the Police. The IRAQI POLICE. They are being killed at an alarming rate by the insurgents. Did you ever ask yourself why?? It's because they can identify the BAD GUYS!!! So they become a target. Ever think about how with all the Police that are being killed there how are there any Police left?? That's because they are signing up EVERY SINGLE DAY to BE Police. They are being targeted ON LINE waiting to apply to be a Police officer. The Iraqis are coming forward increasingly to tell the Police AND our Soldiers about the weapons caches and the bomb making houses and who the bad guys are. They are becoming more bold and learning to take the responsibility for themselves.
However the war critics seem to think that the last thirty years or so of the people living under the threat of torture, rape, or murder isn't enough of a reason for them to be a little cautious and not come running from their homes to tattle when someone is doing something bad. It WILL take time.
They dont talk to the guys!!! Boots on the ground who KNOW they are making a difference. They don't go with them when they go and visit the schools and give the kids new school supplies, and see their faces and build the good will for the next generation of Iraqis to trust an American.
They aren't there when our guys get the sewage plants up and running and when there is electricity to a whole lot of people who lived in darkness in more ways than one under Saddam. They haven't mentioned the fact that prewar most Iraqi people didn't have any means of communication. And NOW there are like a billion cell phones in the hands of every day ordinary Iraqi people just like here. (ok I know there aren't a billion Iraqis, but you get my point) There are a great many things Shazzy that YOU and a lot of other Americans were unable to base your decisions on last Tuesday that You simply were not told. So while you think you listened and made an informed decision, you only made the decision that the Democrats who control the Mass Media Propaganda machines wanted you to make based on the Propaganda they are feeding you.
Shazzy our Media now is akin to the spew that Hitler was using to brainwash the masses in Germany. We as a Country need to wake up and smell the coffee. Because that kind of History need not EVER be repeated.
The Soldiers and Marines that I talk to on a regular basis, all understand not only the importance of what they are doing but the complexity of it. They understand that its a long hard road and that they are in it for the long haul. But they are AMERICAN HEROES and they are, despite what John Kerry thinks, THE BEST OF THE BEST that we have in this country. And THEY understand what the heck they are doing there and that it will take time EVEN IF people like you and the rest of your bleeding heart liberal friends DON'T!!!!! My money is on our guys and gals in the Military. I suggest that the first thing you do is to write to your newly elected political hacks and tell them DO WHAT'S RIGHT FOR OUR TROOPS. And then go to the column on the right there at the top and pick a Soldier Support Group and start SUPPORTING our troops in some meaningful way. Instead of having one of those stupid yellow magnets on your car and paying lip service, or cutting them off at the knees. DO SOMETHING FOR THEM!!!! And then come back here and talk about how you voted against them, even though your heart was in the right place.
There isnt much more to say because Sue covered it all.
Shazzy, when you mention in your post about wanting all our men and women to come home safe and grow old that sounds so great in a perfect world. After 9/11 we are no longer a perfect world. We are a world at war and if we pull out of Iraq and Afghanastan now I truly believe 9/11 would happen again and again on a larger scale.
I have been supporting our Soldiers and Marines now for 3 years and every single one of them have told me they would rather be there then have to be fighting on our soil.
Hello,
This letter is very moving. My heart and thoughts are with our soliders. They are also with the Iraqi citizens who are suffering the real birth pains of their republic.
I'm curious to know how the military opinion has evolved. The latest poll I found was done by Zogby (zogby.com/NEW....dbm?ID=1075) taken ten months ago. At that time 72% of the troops thought the US should exit the country within the next year (the Marines, of course, were the strongest for staying). 90% of the troops thought that the US was in Iraq in retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11.
Hi Sue! Hi Lauren! Thanks for the replys!
You're so very right, I haven't talked to any Boots (new word for me), I don't know any, but I AM interested in their opinions, which is why I%u2019m here at a blog site called "THE SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE" . Duh lol Maybe I should have visited this forum earlier, before the election, but I didn%u2019t know you were here until last night. I asked my question/questions to all my friends (90 % Conservative Evangelical Christian Republicans), who had no answer, but repeatedly called me a %u201CBleeding Heart Liberal%u201D ..ending all dialogue I wrote to Santorum (My Republican Senator) and asked him how we would know when the United States had won the war in Iraq and received canned email replies about immigration or privatizing health care. And so, here I am, and still no answer!
BTW…. What IS a Bleeding Heart Liberal? I hear the word used often, but seriously, I don't know specifically what it means and why it's so bad! Sorry.
Sue, Laurie, in YOUR opinion, what do YOU need to see in Iraq to feel confidant that we have won the war? What specific conditions would need to be met in that country for YOU to say, "We won, come home now, troops!"?
And, Laurie, why do the Soldiers and Marines (I thought they were called the same thing, Soldiers…see how ignoant I am!) say that to be fighting there in Iraq/Afghanastan is NOT to be fighting here in the USA. Truthfully, I'd sooner war be in some far-away country than in my back yard, but I just can't see how fighting in Iraq keeps the terrorists away from the United States. Maybe I AM liberal media brain-washed, like Sue said, but if I am, will you please help me see things the right way?
Thank You for your time and patience with me, Sue and Lauren.
BTW… Are you Soldiers/Marines? Or mothers/wives of Soldiers/Marines? I'm totally new here and haven't read much outside this thread, therefore I don't know anyone's history.
Love,
Shazzy
Shazzy,
NO I'm not in the Military, nor the wife/mom of one. I come from a Military family though and I am the adopted family member of about 40 Soldiers, and two Marines that I have supported and am currently supporting. And the difference will be pointed out to you should you ever slip and address a Marine as a Soldier!!! Marines go through a different training than Soldiers do. Cpl M you want to weigh in here since you so POLITELY pointed it out to ME!!! (love u wink wink)
Any way, a bleeding heart liberal in my definition of the word is one who cries the boo hoos that your current situation is everybody elses fault but your own. And that the Government should pay for you to live better (Socialism) instead of you getting up off your butt and doing something about it (Capitalism). They tend to whine and point fingers a lot, and will never take responsibility for their own actions. (Do you remember Bill Clinton with his finger in your face when he got caught?? I did not. . .) But that is just my definition.
AS far as Iraq is concerned. If you did know any Soldiers or Marines you would know that they are TOTALLY committed to their objective and that is a secure and stable Iraq. As far as I know it. CJ or Patriot maybe you could help out here. But that is just what I hear from my guys. They understand what they are doing there. All they ask from us is to support them. To stand behind them and to believe in them. And of course give them the necessary tools to do their jobs without tying their hands and hamstringing them or cutting their legs out from under them. Again, just MY opinion.
The big mistake, in my opinion that is made about the war in Iraq is that it is severed and therefore not seen as a part of the war on terror. The big picture Shazzy is not just that Iraq is a dinky country in some far off land that we shouldnt give a hoot about. And here is where the Dems usually go Ballistic and don't understand the concept. The war IS about oil in a manner of speaking. NOT that Bush is looking to control it and rape Iraq of it's wealth which is what the Dems tell you to believe. It is because if we allow the Terrorist Organizations like Al Quaida to get their hands on it, the world as we know it will cease to exist. And that is where the MSM Propaganda has played a part. Because you probably believe that we just went there to get the oil right?? Think about it. OUR men and women in uniform FULLY understand this. Why don't you??? Why are you sitting here now, after having voted to destroy our Military, not informed? Because the uninformed masses are what the Dems pray on with their hatred. And that IS what drives the Democratic party. Hatred. Again, MHO.
Our men and women are doing AMAZING things in Iraq. They truly are. Do you have any idea how many school children are now going to school that couldn't when Saddam was in power because the schools were filled with bombs and weapons and hardware to make bombs and weapons. This was in the schools Shazzy. Did you know that??? Do you know what the kids look like now, when an American Soldier hands them school supplies and a piece of candy or a bottle of clean water to drink. The smiles on their faces??? And THAT bottle of water is one of the Soldiers own that he needs to sustain himself for that day. But he will share with the people who need it, more than HE does, in his opinion. THAT is what you hurt with your vote.
I understand that you really aren't a bad person and you were fooled because I truly believe that you are sincere in your wanting to learn more, and maybe make a better decision the next time around. But we need to be vigilant now and make sure that our men and women are not short changed by the newly elected majority who have no care or feeling for any of the military. People like John Murtha and John Kerry and Teddy Kennedy and Chuck Schummer, and Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid and Hillary Clinton are only looking out for #1 and that is not going to do our Soldiers any good. Because they need support from home. Not rhetoric. And that is all the Dems seem to want to pass out. For the last three years they have done nothing but complain about the war's execution. But would you please tell me what their plan is to make the war go better?? Don't bother because you won't be able to. There ISN'T ONE. And for all of them telling you they have one, THEY DON'T. Or at least NOT ONE OF THEM is willing to put it into words so that people can actually see it.
We all want our military not to have to put their lives on the line, to go off and leave their families, to get hurt or worse yet. But they do. And they do it willingly, and couragously and PROUDLY. For EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US. With nary a thank you, with no fanfare, with no trumpet flourishes. But they are there. STanding watch for all of us. So that people can vote (or not) and voice their opinions even though a Soldier is not allowed to voice his, for the most part. It is the blood of the Soldier that buys your right to criticize the execution of the war. It is the blood of the Soldier that buys the Dems their power to cut the Soldiers supply line. It is the blood of the Soldier that lets you sleep at night, in your nice, safe, warm bed, and have a dream for tomorrow. And the do it BECAUSE IT'S THEIR JOB!!! That is "Boots" Shazzy. God Bless them. And now that the Dems are in power, God Help them.
Shazzy,
I like Sue am not in the Military nor am I a Military wife or mom. I also come from a Military family. My dad was is Vietnam and my grandfather was in WWII.
I became very involved in supporting my Soldiers and Marines after 9/11. They all have become my extended family. To me they are the backbone of this country and they to be told that shown that all the time. They need to know they are appreciated more then words can ever say.
As far as when I will feel we won the war in Iraq and we can leave I dont have a definite answer for that. I do know that the way the media reports on the war is so unfair. They never report the good things. Like Sue said, the new schools, school equipment. The fact that the Iraqi people have been voting is such a huge milestone. The discussion if WMD were found or werent found isnt even a topic to me. The fact that Saddam had killed thousands of men, women and children and buried them is mass graves is horrific. I believe we belong there. I believe all those children should have a fair chance at life just like all of our children here.
Lastly, If I thought that Dems would do everything to protect our Military I would back them 100%. I am a Republican but I vote for who I feel would be best fit for the job. Sorry but I dont belive the best won.
As an ex-Air Force officer, I'm a little tired of using the soldier worship as an excuse to support what they're doing. Those that signed up after 2002 knew, or should have known, what they might be getting into. It is a difficult, almost impossible job they have, and I admire their efforts and understand that they have to think it must be worthwhile, but this thing was botched from the very beginning, and from the very top.
I'd like to know if any of the posters who warn of the dangers of letting Al-Qaeda getting a hold of Iraqi oil ever think about the fact that our removal of Saddam is what allowed this possibility in the first place? The previous poster thinks it doesn't matter if Saddam didn't have WMD, the fact he killed thousands is enough justification. It is well established, even by the Iraqi governments own figures, that the death rate over the past 3 years is far HIGHER than the death rate over the previous 12, under his rule. In almost every way, life after Saddam is worse than life under him. That's right, there is a worse alternative to a brutal dictator – total anarchy.
I believe that is easy for you to say since you never lived under Saddam or after Saddam.
Also, if your a little tired of all the soldier worship should we all turn our backs on them? I don't look at it as worship at all. In fact I look at it as respect and gratefulness.
No, it's easy for me to say because I can read statistics, as well as frequent interviews with Iraqis who say "it was better under Saddam". For the first year or two, most Iraqis were happy Saddam was gone, but the constant random violence and deterioration of services has made them nostalgic for the relative security and predictability of life under a brutal dictator. Wow, huh? By the way, about 1.2 million Iraqis are refugees, those who can having left the country while others flee to their ethnic areas. The Kurds are the only ones doing pretty well, although they had their autonomy under US protection even before the war.
Like Lauren, I don't look on my support of our Troops as "soldier worship" at all, but the willingness to give back a little bit to the people who sacrifice so much for our country. As far as WMD, I think maybe DougS should have a chat with CJ, since he WAS there and knows what he saw with his own eyes. Heck the media wouldn't report that WMD were found anyway, so how would we, the normal everyday citizen know, unless we spoke with some of our heroes who were or are still there.
Not to mention common sense. Would you rather live in a situation where, as long as you stay out of politics you're mostly safe (even from ordinary crime), or one where you face the daily threat, at random, of being pulled off a bus, kidnapped from your house and tortured to death, blown up, or shot, for no apparent reason?
Hey Lobotomatic,
Just curious, but what's wrong with launching a military campaign to take down a dictator and try to establish a country whose 96 percent increase in OIL revenues goes to roughly 7,500 rebuilding campaigns. Rather than a dictator who spends those revenues(some of that money being ours from the oil we bought) paying his countrymen to send their kids to salafiya jihadiya cults and madrasas only to have those same kids do commit dirty acts like: the sabath bombings in the hotels and plazas in isreal, USS Cole attack in Yemen, Airport, fishing village, market mesa, and embassy bombings in Tanzania, and nearly poisoning the British military food supply. Beleive it or not Saddam does/did pay people to to do these kinda things. So speaking of using the young and innocent does human body sheilds count? or does have to go to something more horrible like sending kids to salafiya jihadiya wahabis cults in Iraq (iraq has them too) or any of the other 76 countries worldwide that U.S. armed forces operate in(most of them being in some european nations, north/central africa, middle east, and some asian nations and with far more volatile and dire situations) . Afterall, what about north africa? You know we need more coal to make our nuclear warships and bombs, right? Anyway chat with ya later, gotta finish my homework!
Peace out Ryan!
F
sorry about the F! it wasn't going to be a bad word!I was just starting a sentence and accidentally pressed a wrong button. Anyway, first of all it wasn't 200,000 to 600,000, Doug. the correct death rate is between 23,000 to 48,000. even that would be too high considering how big the gap between 23k and 48k is. Besides, look at the deathrate before U.S. intrusion, consider that the death rate was at at 6.4 for every 1000 people as oppose to the 5.37 to this very day, and how about the fact that it only takes about 1/4th a pound of explosives to do the damage we see on cnn or fox when at the same time the U.S. military destroys about 300,000 tons of this stuff every year (courtesy of the military channel) and that number increases by 25 tons in the last year. Or consider this, Iraq has 18 provinces and all of them have about major cities (alleys about shoulder width apart), but only half of them have violence in one of those three cities, and in between that 3/4ths of the iraqi provinces have about 300 fishing villages, towns, regular sized cities, small cities(but still biguns), farming communities, and oasis villages. There are aloso cities in the snow peaked mountains (my usmc friend drove his humvee to one through a donkey cart path in the mountains north of Baghdad). So of all the 300 communities in iraq 299 of them getting along fine with no violence, while receiving American help/aid, and having not seen military conflict since the the invasion. Anyway consider that the U.S. has nothing to do with the escalating violence in the first place, like how for every one attack on us troops you have 60 on civilian/public establishments and about 800 in between those done to individual civilians(sometimes families like kidnappings, robberies, and homeinvasions). along with the fact that 99 percent of the violence is caused by sectarian violence between sunnis and shiites and that these sects target each other and almost never aims for U.S. soldiers unless they are standing between them and the other sect.
As for the casualty figures, the Iraqi Minister of Health asserted last week that 150,000 civilians had died at the hands of insurgents, apparently not including insurgents themselves, deaths from US action, etc. About a year ago the Iraqi government's number was about 50,000. Casualties are always underreported in war zones due to breakdown of centralized reporting. The only scientific survey so far has been the Lancet study, which found a most probable number of 650,000 excess deaths, 90% backed up by death certificates. This methodology has been successfully used in Kosovo, Congo, and other war zones. There was also a story in the LA Times Sunday about the breakdown in Iraqi health care, with many dying as a result. So that's why I use a range of 200,000-650.000.
Also, as reported in State of Denial and official US statistics, about 60-75% of the IED and sniper attacks are aimed at US forces (although many civilians are hit as a result). Our responsibility for the violence is that we disbanded the security structures in place (the army and the police) without enough troops to impose security or even a plan. You could see that on the first day of the occupation, with the widespread looting and Rumsfeld saying "stuff happens" and "freedom is messy". Compare this to Germany, which was occupied by about 2 million troops, with not a single combat death during the occupation.
Gosh DougS, if we Americans have done such a horrible job over there, might I suggest that you and the Dems just go right on over there and "fix it" since you all seem to know all of the supposed facts about the "horrible things" we Americans have done over there. It seems that you all tend to forgot about the POSITIVE things that we've done over there.
DougS – "Our responsibility for the violence is that we disbanded the security structures in place (the army and the police)"
Doug, while we're quote from State of Denial, I noticed you omitted the part where it didn't matter that we disbanded the Army and police force because it was practically nonexistent by the time we got to Baghdad. I was with the 101st in the early days of the war and the Iraqi Army melted away. They were nowhere to be found. Slowly, we started building them back up, but by the time the order was made, it was a moot point anyway.
State of Denial covers this aspect quite extensively and does a pretty good job actually clearing us of the culpability here. And, yes, while IED attacks are technically AIMED at us many times, they don't succeed in killing US as often as they kill CIVILIANS. Look what happened in New Orleans. Chaos results in looting. We didn't force those people to loot. They did it themselves. Why is someone's lack of morales my fault? Why is it Rumsfeld's fault?
You speak of Germany, but Germany never attacked us. Why were we even there? Why did we devote so many troops to invading a country that never knocked down our towers, err, bombed our harbors? A time and a season my friend.
I'm going to repost something that CJ has posted in the past. Something that the Media and the Democrats FAIL to ever mention. I find it interesting DougS that you don't mention any of the positive things either.
Did you know that 47 countries' have reestablished their embassies
in Iraq?
Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million
Iraqi people?
Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are
under rehabilitation,
263 new schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have
been completed in Iraq?
Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20
Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers,
all currently operating?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in
January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5 -
100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry
regiment.
Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational
squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport
aircraft (under Iraqi operational control)
which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters
and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?
Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando
Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000
fully trained and equipped police officers?
Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq
that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in
Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83
railroad stations,22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69
electrical facilities.
Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5
have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in
primary school by mid October?
Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq
and phone use has gone up 158%?
Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75
radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?
Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election
had a televised debate recently?
OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!
WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW?
OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!
Instead of reflecting our love for our country,
we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib
and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.
Tragically, the lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two
purposes:
It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United
States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to
discourage American citizens.
—- Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web
site.
Terri,
Of course we know all that BUT the DougS's of the world only know "But the President lied, where are the WMD?"
Everyone seems to know the facts but yet have never stepped a foot in Iraq or Afghanastan.
Yeah Lauren I knew that you all knew it, but figured that I'd repost it for DougS's sake. Afterall he does seem to be a bit misinformed. It's amazing how much stuff they spew, without, as you said never stepping a foot in Iraq or Afghanistan. It's nice to know that our information is coming from reliable sources, such as soldiers who ARE or HAVE been there.
People who ask where are hte wmd are only stressing a repeated lie that we went in there(Iraq) for wmd's. We didn't and I am tired of debunking this falsehood. Oh and doug thanx for the reply, anyway wmd"s was only one of the reasons we went to iraq. There were in fact dozens of reasons for going to iraq: all include- harboring terrorist, supporting wahabis and salafiya jihadiya cults in the madrassas by paying people to join and paying if they commit attacks or join a terror organization or get killed or commit suicide while fighting people they deem as enemies to a holy war, supporting terrorist and rogue nation attempts at assasination,violations of u.n. resolutions and international laws or sanctions imposed on iraq, shooting at our planes while enforcing no fly zones(u.n. law), trying to stop weapns inspectors to destroy his(saddam) 1990's wmd's(this happened in 1998 in october 31st), and attempting to assasinate a president in kuwait. All brought up in the year long debate we had in the punditry, blogsphere, and the government with the wmds not having been mentioned once in this debate until the final weeks of the said debate. besides we did find wmd's. the kind we were looking for just not in the amounts or places we expected. we expected to find 500 tons of yellowcake and we did, and we expected to find the 700 downgraded mustard and sarin gas shells. Like we expected to find some of those 700 gas shells in old battlefields, that is why our soldiers were given anti chemical gear becasue even if those shells can't be fired from a cannon or weapon you can still strap plastic explosives to it a blow them up like that. These were the weapons we wanted and they do count just ask the kurds! all the results of the year long debate and the wmd's we were told to search for can be found at http:www.deanesmay.com/posts1107330058.shtml. Try looking for the click right here to read it in pdf form to see the reasons why the congress decided to give Bush the order to go to war with iraq. Oh and actually this final response is to DougS. Iraq has a good medical and hospital service and it is efficient considering every hosital can hold anyone who comes in injured or sick without worrying if the hospital is low on material or if the patient will be turned down to be told to try another hospital somewhere else. However the insufficient medicare incident where people are turned down while they are dying happens alot more often in the countries with the most advanced medicare systems in the world like the U.S.A, Canada, and France. Besides the lancet study was not based off of accurate scientific research. They chose less than one of the several hundred cities or communites in each province and chose a 1,000 random houses total in the overall study and said for every 1000 people in iraq, this is how many of them have died recently. Which is ridiculous because there are far more people who have studied this problem just as scientifically and are far more professional than the lancet at research who say death rates far lower than the lancet says. for example the cia world fact book has the actual death rate of iraq to include more than just violence, but illness, natural death, poverty, accidents, and infant mortality as well. which if you compare that to our death rate of any other country you research in that factbook including the U.S.A that youre typical national death rate of any nation is about two times higher. Afghanistan, zimbabwe, south africa, bulgaria, russia, u.s.a., france, most south american nations and most north african nations, phillipines and indonesia just to name a few. Anyway sorry guys would chat more but gotta go!
Later!
Just time for a quick response to Ryan (and thanks to everyone, I do like a spirited debate). You might look up the part in State of Denial (also in Fiasco and other accounts) in which Jay Garner's deputy, Col Hughes, were in talks with Iraqi officers who had assembled a list of 175,000 troops they claimed could be reconstituted for security and reconstruction work, assuming the US would pay their salaries. These talks were well along when Bremer took over and ordered the military disbanded, without pay. Garner and others pleaded with him not to take this step, saying it would take at least two years to reform the army, but only weeks to reconstitute the old one. It's still not clear why Bremer ordered this, or even if he was told to do it by higher ups. Does anyone still think this was a good or necessary move?
"You speak of Germany, but Germany never attacked us. Why were we even there?" As a historical note, and I also had to correct my stepfather on this, Germany declared war on us two days after Pearl Harbor.
they also killed about a little more than a hundred americans and 2000 of our british friends when hitler's u-boat sank the lusitania!
Um, wrong war there, buddy.
was that world war one or two when this the lusitania went down?
The Lusitania was WW1. We didn't go to war for another two years, when we found out Germany was promising Mexico American territory in case of war. In WW2, I'm not convinced we would have gone to war with Germany if they hadn't declared it first. Possibly people would have said let's focus on Japan. Hitler was under no obligation under the Axis treaty to join Japan, since Japan had attacked first.
DougS, I think you should go back and reread some. Roosevelt was preparing for war with Germany as far back as 1940, whether he actually let the American people in on it or not. In July of 1940, Roosevelt signed the Two Ocean Navy Expansion Act. This was to prepare for war with BOTH Japan and Germany. In December of 1940, the draft was instituted to begin training troops who would be needed for the war. By January of 1941, the Navy was ordered to bring troops to War Embellishment. By May of 1941, Roosevelt had declared a limited National Emergency and called upon all Americans to resist Hitlerism. By June of 1941, Roosevelt had ordered a freeze on all German and Italian assets, as well as that of Occupied Countries. In July of 1941 he ordered the freeze on Japan's assets. This does not sound like a President who is not preparing for war.
In October of 1941, Roosevelt in his Navy Day speech declared that we had been attacked by Germany, "the shooting has started". The mobilization of American Troops began on December 7, 1941, ironically as Pearl Harbor was being bombed. On December 8, 1941, we declared war on Japan, four days later we declared war on Germany and Italy. I sincerely doubt that there was any room for chatting on this one Doug. Roosevelt knew what needed to be done. But no one questioned him. He thankfully didn't have the MSM idiots there to second guess his strategies and decisions. And our landings on the beaches of Normandy were thankfully not simalcast to the American people as the mounting tallies of dead and wounded where not shoved down people throats and were not told how inept our Government was.
People didn't mock the President and call him a liar on the Floor of Congress. People didn't call our brave men and women Baby Killers on the floor of the house and make them persona non grata in this country.
People then, rallied around our troops and our President. They made individual sacrifices so that the troops had what they needed. It was a Country filled with pride, filled with spirit, filled with patriotism. It was ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE. Not like today. Where our Soldiers are not respected by the people or the members of the Senate or Congress. People like John Kerry, John Murtha, Teddy Kennedy, Jack Reid, Nancy Pelosi, don't give a fig about our men and women in Uniform except if they can use them for a good sound bite on the Six oclock news. Doug, you said you were a retired vet. I would like to know when you served. I am guessing you were in Viet Nam, and that is the reason you chose to mock my feelings for my Soldiers, and Marines. As a Vet, I think you deserve all the respect in the world. I will not attack what you said because if in fact you were in Viet Nam, your feelings of resentment are perfectly understood, albeit misplaced. But you are entitled to every single one of them. But don't say that the young men and women fighting today do not deserve to be called heroes. Because they do. And if you read up on ANY of them, or if you even knew ONE of them, you would know that my feelings are in the right place, at the right time, for the right people. There is NOT ONE guy I have supported, and gotten to know and love, that I would not be very comfortable with saying he is a hero. I'm sure that you will have some comments for me. I will be waiting in anticipation.
Sorry, haven't checked back in a while. Taking the historical question first, there is little doubt Roosevelt was doing his damndest (is that a word?) to prepare and to get us into the war, you could even say trying to provoke Germany. But with the overwhelming isolationist mood there was no way the US could declare war first. Naturally the picture changed completely when we were attacked first, followed by Germany's declaration of war.
Now as to the comparison of WW2 and this war – do you believe all wars undertaken by this country are equally valid? I would place wars on a moral scale, which corresponds to the willingness of the people to fight it. The most "moral" way to get into a war is to have it imposed on you, that is someone declares war on you. Then you have no choice but fight or surrender.
Most people believe that war is generally a bad thing and that it should only be undertaken if the alternative promises to be worse. For example, the UN sanctions, indeed requires, intervention to stop a genocide. You could also make a plausible case for a preemptive strike on a neighbor that is indisputedly preparing to attack you or your vital interests and has committed acts of hostility (i.e. Israel in 1967). Moving down the scale, one might intervene in an ongoing conflict to impose a peace, or to separate warring sides (Vietnam).
But when you start a war from a condition of peace, you're at the bottom of the scale. You are making a decision to bring death and suffering to not only your own troops, but people who were not about to attack you and were not attacking anyone else. Why?
Incidentally, I served in peacetime and am not, for the record, "resentful" of soldiers. But by constantly repeating the "heroes" theme you imply we must support what these brave soldiers are doing. Remind yourself that it was not the brave soldiers who started this war, but the Vietnam-dodgers who never served in combat and were a little casual about getting us into this.
Doug,
I'm having trouble following your logic. You obviously have preconceived notions as well as a deep seated hatred of all things related to THIS President. Obviously. Now, first, thank you for serving in the Military. As I said, you deserve the respect for having served. And I would like to point out that our current President, contrary to anything you and all those of your ilk like to keep saying, DID serve his country. The National Guard is just as honorable a Service as being a Flyboy. Just so you know. They serve, just as any other Soldier does, though their mission is a little different at most times. And another oft times forgotten little tidbit, is that Bush tried several times to volunteer to go and fly missions over in Viet Nam and was told no. Not defending him, just sick of the MSM crap that is vomited out time and time again by you and those like you. (Really getting tired of repeating it but you all seem to read the same misinformed websites.)
As for Roosevelt "provoking" Germany, I would hardly call the Greer a provocation by the US. Or doesn't that count??? I would also hardly call the systematic march across Europe and enslavement of millions of people and occupation of Sovereign Nations unprovoking behavior on Germany's part.
As for the people, I really don't remember any of my elders ever having said that the people were not behind the President in what he did or what was necessary for our country. I do remember them talking about the willingness of the people to sacrifice and stand proudly behind our men and women as they went off to fight the war. The MSM didn't propagandize and destroy the moral of our country as well as our Military back then, as they are doing right now, to further their political agenda.
And I still am dumbfounded by your mocking me for feeling the way I do about our Soldiers. You obviously don't know any or you would show them more respect. I don't know if you were drafted, or served under Pinnochio and therefore just have NO respect for the service as did YOUR president, who incidently was a lying cheating draft dodger, in case you forgot that little bit of history.
Roosevelt thank God, had the forsight to be preparing for what was inevitable. Monday morning quarterbacking is a wonderful thing Doug. You ALWAYS get to be right. BUT, and it is an important BUT, the men that make things happen, are the ones who are visionaries. The ones who can see the World as a Master at chess sees the board. More than one move down the road. They see the big picture and do not get lost in the microcosm that is "their" world. When Reagan was President, he had a World Vision. He saw the future. He knew what was necessary. And while Reagan NOW is a much Beloved President, back when he was in office, he was much maligned just as President Bush is today. Only time will tell. And history will write Bush's epitaph. Not you and certainly not me. I for one would much rather put my trust in a man who believes in God and is willing to do the right thing rather than taking a poll to see which way the wind is blowing, which is all the Clinton Administration did, while mocking God with an intern under his desk, and lying with his finger in my face on National Television. Or are you one of those who says it wasn't REALLY a lie because it was JUST about sex????
Oh, and a little PS, Clinton got us into many messes, that involved American lives lost in Military actions, in case you haven't forgotten the Terrorists favorite movie. Let me remind you of Blackhawk Down. Ring a bell??
"But by constantly repeating the %u201Cheroes%u201D theme you imply we must support what these brave soldiers are doing. Remind yourself that it was not the brave soldiers who started this war, but the Vietnam-dodgers who never served in combat and were a little casual about getting us into this."
And by calling the Soldiers and Marines Heroes, I imply nothing more than respect for those who make incredible sacrifices for me and I am only giving them the respect they deserve. Showing respect implies no political agenda. And it is ignorance to imply otherwise. My "hero-worship" as you call it has nothing whatsoever to do with my politics, or support or not for anything reason other than one man, one Soldier, one HUGE sacrifice. For me, and for you. I only hope the day doesn't come, that because of people like you, saying the disrespectful things you do about our Military, that they don't say, "Wow, that Doug, he isn't worth my sacrifice." Because when you aren't worth it, that means they won't fight for me either. How bout you keep that in mind as you criticize me for caring about the people who let me sleep safely in my bed at night while they sleep(?) in some foxhole some where, and let me enjoy Thanksgiving with MY family, while they are maybe, if they are lucky, getting to wolf down an MRE on the run while being shot at and dodging IED's. I for one appreciate what they do Doug, and I am SO sorry for you. And for all of us, that you, and those like you, DO NOT understand that. As you chow down all fat and sassy at your Thanksgiving Table tomorrow, maybe you can take a moment and humble yourself and for once, ask for those who can't be at a table like yours, to at least be safe, and to let them come home when their job is done. RESPECT Doug, that is the only thing I imply.
I don't disagree with Roosevelt trying to get us into the war, and he was extending all the aid to the British he legally could. There's also no doubt that war was more popular than this one, or the Korean War for that matter. The media reflects the general view of the time, it does not create it. If the coverage was an invention or a conspiracy, then Fox News and the Washington Times should be having dramatically different coverage than everyone else.
Actually, on Bush's enlistment papers he checked the box that said "do not volunteer for overseas". You can see the document here: takebacktheme...onotbush.gif
I'd also like Sue to point out the "disrespectful" things I've said about the military. Is she talking about my criticism of the policy that was, last I checked, the creation of the civilian leadership?
oh yes doug, thats a wonderful proof of Bush's not going over seas!! Wow, I'm so impressed by the lack of id on that piece of paper!!! Get real. Having been in the military, you are well aware of the mistakes that are made in triplicate no less on paperwork. (if indeed that is "his" paperwork.) I believe the Army actually has a term for it. I believe it's called SNAFU, or FUBAR!!! But then again, that isn't limited to the military branch of our Government. Doug face it, you are not open to anything that doesn't coincide with your views and your thorough brainwashing by the mass liberal media. Your failure to recognize political propaganda shows an insipid knowlege of what is actually going on around you. The "news" is no longer news. You are being spoonfed exactly what the Left Wing wants you to hear. And those of your ilk always say that Fox is the bad guy. And that is most typical, and shows your true colors. You seem to be a kin to the dreaded brick barn.
wow! judging by some comments in here, is it even legal in the minds of bush supporters to have a view contrary to conventional republican/conservative beliefs? are those of us opposed to this war based on sound reasoning and the obvious horrible results just flat-out unamerican? liberal media brainwashing….are you kidding me?
furthermore, i resent the implication that i've stabbed the military in the back simply because i dont vote the way THEY want me to!! thats absurd. the military have absolutely no right to excoriate the electorate and none of us should vote based on what the military would prefer. when i was in the army, i sure as hell didnt like reagan. but who was i to tell the american public that they were idiots for electing him? perhaps the military rank and file should be discussing the 400 disabled vets who raised hell last year at a congressional hearing where republican legislators such as steve buyer R-indiana were roasted and jeered for submitting barely enough money for the 2006 budget for returning servicemembers from iraq and afghanistan with horrific injuries.
the most amazing thing about all of this dem/liberal bashing is that this whole situation has deterioriated without a single democrat in any real position of power in our national government….but somehow they are to blame. i knew this would happen and predicted it. if this war was a success, bush is a hero and the republicans hold power for a generation. but if the war turned out to be a disaster (and it is), its all the liberals fault for stabbing the troops in the back. LOL…can't win.
I agree tony
that nobody should call anyone a backstabber for voting or how they voted or who they voted for. This is why we came to america. Sorry doug and sue I left for a while because I was busy studying for my college midterms (I am doing great though!). I also stayed out for a while because it looked like you two were getting a little personal. Oh and tony ,actually as much as I agree that you should not have soldiers telling people how to vote, however this soldier is not telling people how to vote or who to vote for. He is in fact telling people that he disagrees with them and is saying that he and all the other troops in iraq are upset about the results. Afterall there is no crime in being a part of the minority,even though it does fell terrible, it kinda makes you stronger in some ways!
yea, well i did gather that the military isnt actually telling us how we should vote, but i'm not interested in their opinion one way or the other. of course i do agree with their right to speak their opinions. but if the military doesnt even have the right to express opinions contrary to their own leadership, why should i as a private citizen care what they think of my vote specifically? i'll take their opinion seriously when they can critisize the president in the same way they critisize the electorate.
also, why should i believe that soldiers in iraq overwhelmingly disagree with the election results? i'm not saying that rusty humphries is a liar, but he's a very strong partisan and was quite bitter after the election. this letter sounded EXACTLY like his rant on the night of the election. from my experience, soldiers generally remain very apolitical throughout their military service. the exception to this rule can be found in the senior levels of the officer corps. but for the most part, in my 6 years in the army i cant even remember any serious political discussions. besides, soldiers in iraq have a whole lot more to worry about than the mid-term elections. that IED around the corner doesnt give a darn about who just won an election.
Well,
If you don't care so much about what the military thinks why did you choose to reply to this soldier or any of the people who are debating on this blogsphere. I mean all do respect Tony, but I don't think one soldier's opinion in anyway represents the armed forces opinion as a whole just like how I think a crazed insurgent with bombs doesn't represent the Iraq as a whole ,and I only say that becasue I kinda get the judgement that you think this from your last reply. Afterall, just like when I was rebuttling some dummy at my college who called my ROTC instructor a recruiter, and this started backing down he said he was kidding then I told him that he wasn't becasue you wouldn't be saying that unless you believe it to some extent. Well to me the same goes for you.I think you do care or are somewhat affected by this entry in the soldier's perspective site, otherwise why would you tke the time and reply to the soldier's letter and the people blogging here. Unless you don't care I suggest you start acting like it and let me discuss this topic and this soldier's opinion with somebody who does care!
Tony, CJ and I have criticized the President quite a bit…when he's made mistakes (ahem, education & immigration). I'm not afraid to speak my opinion of my President's policies, military or not. I didn't give away that right when I signed up. I cannot, however, be disrespectful to my commander in chief. Disagreement
equalsdisrespect.I can't disagree with you on that point becasue I am no different. I may be pro iraq war, and against secular extremism, but I am pro open border, pro-abortion, pro-gay mariage, and want a better environmental care policy. Just to point out! Later.
Ryan, you essentially made the same point that i did, that is, that one soldiers sentiments in a letter cant possibly reflect the opinions of all the troops in the field. i dont even believe that his letter reflects the opinion of half the soldiers….let alone all of them.
also, you mentioned that one crazed insurgent doesnt represent the iraqi people as a whole. fair enough, but he sure as hell represents ALOT of iraqis…thats for sure! and even if he only represents 10% of iraqis, thats trouble for us because you dont even need that many to make our stay in iraq treacherous. and there is no way in hell you can say that iraq isnt treacherous. in fact, its obvious that its downright scary. i sure as heck wouldnt want to be there. now if you had evidence that its getting better (and there is no way you can possibly have that evidence), that would be a different story.
by the way, i made it clear that i have no problem with the opinions of individual soldiers, but my comment was made towards the military as a whole. in other words, i'm not interested in this idea that "the military" as a whole has only 1 opinion or some general one sided political view and that we as american civilians should consider it when voting. even if that were true, i wouldnt give that opinion the weight i give the opinion of a 4 year old. if the military cant critisize the policies of the commander and chief openly in a letter, then i'm not interested in their criticism of me as a voter in a letter. the voters didnt send troops into iraq, so why should this soldier be pissed at us?
i guess my main problem is with rusty humphries himself. what is he trying to tell us by pubicizing this letter? whats his point? is this letter supposed to make us feel bad for voting the way we did? and to boot, the letter is silly, mean, outrageous and juvenile. i mean, more than half of this country is stupid for voting democrat while this soldier is so damn smart? give me a break.
in closing let me say this…when bush decided to take this country to war, it was well understood that he was taking a huge risk for his presidency. risk inherently means that there is a chance of failure. all of you war supporters KNEW that from the beginning. if bush was successful, it was understood that repubs would have control of our government for at least a generation. democrats were the scourge of the country at the time. we were vanquished and many of the countrys' best democrats cowered under the bush presidency. most didnt even challenge the president on iraq. i can still remember bush on that aircraft carrier at the pinnacle of his victory and i remember the euphoria most republicans were feeling. i know…it was very intoxicating, wasnt it? well, that risk went bust and we democrats and liberals are not to blame. why you guys are so reluctant to blame big bad bush for this debacle goes over my head. i'm not going to spout off with the 'i told you so's'……but maybe you guys will be more humble in the future with concern to foreign policy and not so full of hubris. but this war? its lost and everybody knows it. so please, let our boys come home instead of keeping them there just so you can say that you arent "cutting and running."